Holiness

[from scratch]

....been meditating on this.....seems that "holiness" involves "fearing" God. (Actually, "fearing God" would be a good study as well, since holiness and fearing God goes hand-in-hand)

 

[Thekla]

Which verse are we talking about?

Hey Lamb

In Matthew 5:48 - "be ye" spoken to us is in the future tense* (thus become perfect). When Christ speaks of God, the "is" is in the present tense - so He gives a contrast and a "challenge".

*duh, I meant to write future and put "perfect" instead - sorry !
fixed it

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Thekla
"Be ye perfect ..." is in the future tense, ie be becoming perfect.

Hmmm....this is interesting. 2 Bible versions render that greek word #4137 differently in Reve 3:2.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

KJV) Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect/peplhrwmena <4137> (5772) before God.

Young) Revelation 3:2 become watching, and strengthen the rest of the things that are about to die, for I have not found thy works fulfilled/peplhrwmena <4137> (5772) before God.

Textus Rec.) Revelation 3:2 ginou grhgorwn kai sthrixon ta loipa a mellei apoqanein ou gar eurhka sou ta erga peplhrwmena enwpion tou qeou

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"perfect"
occurs 99 times in 94 verses in the KJV

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"perfect"
occurs 160 times in 149 verses in the YLT

 

[Frogster]

Hey Lamb

In Matthew 5:48 - "be ye" spoken to us is in the perfect (thus become perfect). When Christ speaks of God, the "is" is in the present tense - so He gives a contrast and a "challenge".

How?

 

[from scratch]

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.Phil 3:10-14


In John 8 Jesus told the woman that she was forgiven and not condemned. This speaks of the reconciliation of man with God, realized by the Atonement. He then told her to 'go, an sin no more'. This concerns our part, a part we cannot accomplish without Gods help, but one we must nevertheless strive for-if we want His help.

Excellent point.

 

[Thekla]

How?

By the entirety of the life in Christ; as Paul says, " But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Cor. 3:18)

 

[fhansen]

Gotta be fluid to support one's ideas these days. Nothing is stable.

The Law is summed up by-and fulfilled by- Love. So to be perfect or conformed to the image of God is simply (though not easily done) to fulfill the greatest commandments, to love God with our whole heart soul, mind and strentgh and our neighbor as ourselves. And this is how Jer 31:31-34 is fulfilled. The Christians' single command could put as: Thou shalt Love.

 

[from scratch]

We don't disagree that we need God and His Son to save us.

Whoa!!!! there pard. One can't have salvation any other way. God (Jesus) said so John 10.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hey Lamb

In Matthew 5:48 - "be ye" spoken to us is in the future tense* (thus become perfect). When Christ speaks of God, the "is" is in the present tense - so He gives a contrast and a "challenge".

*duh, I meant to write future and put "perfect" instead - sorry !
fixed it

Ahhh thks sis.....let me work on that

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

KJV) Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Young) Matthew 5:48
ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

Textus Rec.) Matthew 5:48 esesqe oun umeiV teleioi wsper o pathr umwn o en toiV ouranoiV teleioV estin

 

[from scratch]

As frogster already pointed out, there seems to be a contradiction here if we assume that this passage means that we must labor for our salvation.

Furthermore, it is stated in Philippians 3:9

"And be found in [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..."

So clearly this is not about obedience to a set of rules, or else the author would have contradicted himself. So what is he pressing on toward? The author explains that he wants to "know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death".

How else can we do this other than by taking up our own crosses and following after him? Again, everything else simply falls short.

Running doesn't do any good unless we're running for the right reasons.

Ouch on that verse from Phil 3. That really hits the pro law camp hard.

 

[Frogster]

By the entirety of the life in Christ; as Paul says, " But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Cor. 3:18)

I like how the energy, comes from the Spirit, not us, in that verse.

 

[fhansen]

Whoa!!!! there pard. One can't have salvation any other way. God (Jesus) said so John 10.

Yes??? And???

 

[from scratch]

Arguing over who is running for the right reason doesn't help. Everyone is running for the right reasons.
Christ taught us to humble ourselves and to be meek and tenderhearted, to forgive each other and to not offend each other. Its also His will that we not walk according to the lust of our flesh but seek to be holy and walk in the Spirit. Why argue against this? It just causes division and contention, doesn't it? Can't we just agree that its Gods will? Do we need to fight about it? Lets just agree on what we were taught and love each other. Please.

I guess it makes a difference which track your running on. For sure winning the race is the most important thing. It sure seems we're at different track meets.

 

[Thekla]

I like how the energy, comes from the Spirit, not us, in that verse.

Paul does talk elsewhere about "synergy", ie we cooperate with what God does. (So of course we could also not cooperate ...)

 

[fhansen]

Ouch on that verse from Phil 3. That really hits the pro law camp hard.

No Christian should be pro law as a primary focus. We must be pro love.

 

[Frogster]

Paul does talk elsewhere about "synergy", ie we cooperate with what God does. (So of course we could also not cooperate ...)

well sure, Hebrews shows us people can walk away.

 

[Nanopants]

I guess it makes a difference which track your running on. For sure winning the race is the most important thing. It sure seems we're at different track meets.

Absolutely. Dare I suggest that those who are on the "right" track are those who lay down their lives to save others and not themselves?

 

[from scratch]

Jesus said that only those who do the will of His father are his brothers and sisters. Jesus said not everyone who calls Him lord lord will enter heaven. Cant we just agree on what we agree on? No one is teaching against justification and salvation by way of faith in Jesus alone. We can all read teaching about salvation through faith alone, but your argument seems to suggest we don't need to follow Jesus teaching, and some do just that, they never change, they never follow Jesus teaching, they just rest in grace and never change, Jesus warned them and we should warn them also. That warning made me fear God with a Godly fear, it spoke to my heart and told me that i must be a doer of the word and not just a hearer of it. I needed to hear that warning, freedom and salvation by faith alone didn't help me to seek to be a doer of the word, only these teachings below did that.

Jesus teaching is pretty simple - Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Doesn't that cover the love others angle completely? Why then must we focus on thou shalt not steal, lie, murder, commit adultery, etc? It seems rather automatic that those behaviors aren't part of the Christian life style and don't need the law to back them up. Can't we recognize evil?

Jas_1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

By the entirety of the life in Christ; as Paul says, " But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." (2 Cor. 3:18)

Here again, 2 popular Bible versions render that word differently, and this verse is the only one that uses this particular word

KJV)
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass/kat-optrizomenoi <2734> (5734) the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Young)
2 Corinthians 3:18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror/kat-optrizomenoi <2734> (5734), to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G2734 matches the Greek &#954;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#960;&#964;&#961;&#8055;&#950;&#969; (katoptriz&#333;), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance

2734. katoptrizomai middle voice from a compound of 2596 and a derivative of 3700 (compare 2072); to mirror oneself, i.e. to see reflected (figuratively):--behold as in a glass.
2596. kata a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--
3700. optanomai a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai;
which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of 3708 to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable;

 

[from scratch]

The bible said to use fear to snatch some from the flames and on others have compassion, making a difference. We can't use a one size fits all approach. We need to warn people

Jud_1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Yep being scared is a motivator for sure.