Hocus Pocus ????

[WarEagle]

But Christ in you, the hope of glory...

But you're dead to sin:

Romans 6
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.




Eph 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;
6 And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Both of which refer to being dead to sin, not physically dead.

 

[sunlover1]

Both of which refer to being dead to sin, not physically dead.

I think he mispoke and meant something different.

 

[lionroar0]

First of all, how can I be nekros? I just got a physical last week and, other than a little bronchitis, the doctor prounounced me healthy.

Don't you think he would have noticed if I were nekros?

Second, doesn't the verse very clearly differentiate between those believers who are physically alive and those who are physically dead?

I have no idea what you mean by Nekros but St. Paul talks about being baptised in to Jesus's Death and rising with Him.

Romans 6

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

We died to sin and now we live a new life through the grace of Jesus Christ.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

I have no idea what you mean by Nekros

I mean exactly what the Bible means by nekros: physically dead, gone from this world into the next.

but St. Paul talks about being baptised in to Jesus's Death and rising with Him.

I see. So then, you believe that those who are born again are physically dead?

We died to sin and now we live a new life through the grace of Jesus Christ.

But we did not die physically.

 

[lionroar0]

I see. So then, you believe that those who are born again are physically dead?

Nope. They die to sin and reborn again into a new life of grace.

But we did not die physically.

Of coure not.

I mean exactly what the Bible means by nekros: physically dead, gone from this world into the next.

Thank you for the clarification.

I belive either we are in agreement or we are speaking past each other.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

Nope. They die to sin and reborn again into a new life of grace.

Then your point that this verse is refering to those who are physically dead is untrue.

I belive either we are in agreement or we are speaking past each other.

Good. I'm glad that you agree that the dead are dead.

 

[lionroar0]

Good. I'm glad that you agree that the dead are dead.

Physically yes but not spiritually.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Then your point that this verse is refering to those who are physically dead is untrue.

My fault I should have been more clear.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

Physically yes but not spiritually.

Peace

But they are physically dead and the Bible forbids contact with those who are physically dead.

I don't care what your pope says. I don't care what your early church fathers say. I don't care what your traditions say.

The Bible is the word of God and it says "NO!"

 

[lionroar0]

But they are physically dead and the Bible forbids contact with those who are physically dead.

Youu should care what the early church father say and what the Church says, God transmitted gave us the Bible trhough them. It says nothing about forbidding prayers to Saints.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

Youu should care what the early church father say and what the Church says, God transmitted gave us the Bible trhough them.

Oh, I'm interested in an historical sense, but the bottom line is that anything they say is still their opinion and must be subjected to Biblical scrutiny.

It says nothing about forbidding prayers to Saints.

I see. So then, you're saying that the Bible says "do not pray to the dead, unless they're dead Roman Catholic saints"?

Where in scripture do we see Roman Catholic saints given that exemption?

 

[mont974x4]

Youu should care what the early church father say and what the Church says, God transmitted gave us the Bible trhough them. It says nothing about forbidding prayers to Saints.

Peace

1. The bible is always negative in reagrds to talking to the dead.

2. Just because those men were used by God doesn't mean they were always right and doesn't give them any special authority.

 

[mont974x4]

This would indicate that communing with the dead, even if raised again, wouldn't do a darn thing anyways.

nasb
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

 

[Catholic Christian]

Pax Vobis, from
the Catholic Crusader

What is an indulgence? The Church explains, "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1).

Please read these links if you would like a true explanation of indulgences:
http://www.catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp

PS: The "Hocus Pocus" bit? Very insulting. Please refrain from insults.

 

[TraderJack]

Pax Vobis, from
the Catholic Crusader

What is an indulgence?

An indulgence is an ungodly invention by the dark age Roman Catholic religion whereby in it's path of veering off the straight and narrow, Rome developed a religious system that was far removed from the Gospel and Church preached by Christ and the Apostles, and was one that abused people by giving them a false hope while milking them of their money and keeping them in bondage to the Roman Catholic religion.

 

[lionroar0]

An indulgence is an ungodly invention by the dark age Roman Catholic religion whereby in it's path of veering off the straight and narrow, Rome developed a religious system that was far removed from the Gospel and Church preached by Christ and the Apostles, and was one that abused people by giving them a false hope while milking them of their money and keeping them in bondage to the Roman Catholic religion.

Historically when person had a penance they wold do something fomr the church and their penance would be lessened. That is where indulgences came from.

ANd yes they were abused during the middle ages.

But that is no longer the case.

Peace

 

[DarkLegend28]

I don't understand why they are necessary.

 

[TraderJack]

I don't understand why they are necessary.

They aren't.

It was and is just another doctrine that has nothing to do with genuine Christianity.

 

[Trento]

An indulgence is an ungodly invention by the dark age Roman Catholic religion whereby in it's path of veering off the straight and narrow, Rome developed a religious system that was far removed from the Gospel and Church preached by Christ and the Apostles, and was one that abused people by giving them a false hope while milking them of their money and keeping them in bondage to the Roman Catholic religion.

Yu might want to study Church History and find how ingenious was the Church to marry barbarian virtues with the virtues of high Roman civilization and incorporate both within the Church, consecrating formerly barbarian swords for Christian ends, reconciling barbarian concepts of honor and loyalty with Catholic concepts of faith and fidelity.I refer to the Dark Age newly Catholic tribes as “Bikers for the Bishop of Rome
It was the Church that gave us chivalry, turning barbarian high spirits to useful ends. It was one of the great historic tragedies of Reformation that it broke this Church check and guide on the martial spirit by saying that the power of the state was scriptural and that the power of the Church was not.

That was a terrible regression. It sanctified the idea that might makes right, and the idea that the Church was of marginal importance to society, civilization, and politics. It undid the work of centuries. Where once the Roman emperor, commander of all Rome’s legions, could be forced to do penance by the Bishop of Milan, as the Emperor Theodosius was compelled to do by St. Ambrose, after the Reformation the Church’s check on state power was abolished. If any institution was not surprised by the twentieth century being a century of genocide and two world wars, it was the Church.​

 

[Thekla]

This would indicate that communing with the dead, even if raised again, wouldn't do a darn thing anyways.

nasb
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

isn't this, instead, a comment on the spiritual condition of the rich man and his brothers ?