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Hocus Pocus ????

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Rick Otto

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To everyone who keeps referring to the "Roman" Church, or the "Roman Catholic" Church: The Roman Rite is only one of many Rites that make up the Catholic Church (although it may be the largest). The Catholic Church is a communion of churches with two things in common: Doctrine and being in communion with the bishop of Rome. The are Roman Catholics, Marionite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Malankarese Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Armenian Catholics, and many many more. But, as a rule, the name of the Church is simply the "Catholic Church".

Just a little information to throw into the void that is this thread.
So then my question would be "How many Rites make a Wrong? About 30,000?:D
But realy, bro I appreciate the info. I do think it is important for us to aware of each other's demographics.
Full Transparency! Stay The course! (sorry, I been listenin' to NPR too much.)
I'm on break. Wow. This batch of burittos came out perfect!:blush: And I found some fresh salsa, too. Avacados were $.59 apiece for a week! :clap: ...:)sorry:).:
Doctrine & being in communion with the bishop of Rome can be more difficult than you guys make it look, & your style is hard to top, I admit.;)
 
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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by terryobrien80
To everyone who keeps referring to the "Roman" Church, or the "Roman Catholic" Church: The Roman Rite is only one of many Rites that make up the Catholic Church (although it may be the largest). The Catholic Church is a communion of churches with two things in common: Doctrine and being in communion with the bishop of Rome. The are Roman Catholics, Marionite Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Malankarese Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Chaldean Catholics, Armenian Catholics, and many many more. But, as a rule, the name of the Church is simply the "Catholic Church".

Just a little information to throw into the void that is this thread.


So then my question would be "How many Rites make a Wrong? About 30,000?:D
But realy, bro I appreciate the info. I do think it is important for us to aware of each other's demographics.
Full Transparency! Stay The course! (sorry, I been listenin' to NPR too much.)
I'm on break. Wow. This batch of burittos came out perfect! And I found some fresh salsa, too. Avacados were $.59 apiece for a week!
Doctrine & being in communion with the bishop of Rome can be more difficult than you guys make it look, & your style is hard to top, I admit


:D

You gotta stop that Rick, yer killing me.;)

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my sides are aching.^_^
 
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TraderJack

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Apparently you do not have much faith that Jesus prayer is very effective.
("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18


That applies to the genuine sheep of Christ, not the counterfeits.


The counterfeits Jesus tells to "Depart from Me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

And said that to those who called Him, "Lord, Lord" and gave Him a list of all the things they did in His name, who claimed to be the One, True, Only church.
or John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32

Jesus builds the Church upon the person of Peter.


Wrong. And the consensus of the church fathers, you know, that "Tradition" you keep claiming, says the opposite.;)

Darn it, I forgot that Rome no longer claims it's "Tradition" is the consensus of the fathers. Now it is "sola ecclesia, sola roma"---whatever Rome says it is, and can change that at any time to suit it's agenda.
 
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Catholic Christian

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... the consensus of the church fathers, you know, that "Tradition" you keep claiming, says the opposite. Darn it, I forgot that Rome no longer claims it's "Tradition" is the consensus of the fathers. Now it is "sola ecclesia, sola roma"---whatever Rome says it is, and can change that at any time to suit it's agenda.

The Apostolic Tradition (Catechism Of The Catholic Church, sections 75 thru 81)
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm#art2

75 - "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."
In the apostolic preaching . . .

76 - In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

—orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received—whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";

—in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing."

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 - "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them ‘their own position of teaching authority.'" Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."

78 - This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes." "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."

79 - The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture

One common source . . .

80 - "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 - "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42 "And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching."

*source link:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.htm#art2
 
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Trento

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That applies to the genuine sheep of Christ, not the counterfeits.


The counterfeits Jesus tells to "Depart from Me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you."

.


Much jibberish and no substance.

("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 is spoken by Christ directly to Peter.
So Apparently you do not have much faith that Jesus prayer is very effective.
 
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Trento

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.Augustine was not speaking of the Roman Catholic church as being "The Catholic Church" at all, as the Roman illusionists would have you believe, but is speaking of the geniune Church of Christ in it's universality, not Rome.

The protestant spin machine again.
AUGUSTINE on PETER the ROCK and the KEYS GIVEN TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock (3) and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church. These are people who condemn as adulteresses widows who marry, and boast that theirs is a purity superior to the teaching of the Apostles!” (Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, AD 396 aut 397)

AUGUSTINE ON SUCCESSION
“The succession of priests, from the very see of the Apostle Peter, to whom our Lord, after His resurrection, gave the charge of feeding His sheep, up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And at last, the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all the heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets (2), none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house (3).” (Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, AD 396-397)

AUGUSTINE on REAL PRESENCE
“For it was the Body of the Lord and the Blood of the Lord even in those to whom the Apostle said: Whoever eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself (15).” (Augustine, Baptism, AD 400)

AUGUSTINE ON SACRAMENTS of BAPTISM and ORDERS
“Both of these, Baptism and Orders, are Sacraments, and each is given to a man by a certain sacred rite (1), when he is baptized, and the other, when he is ordained. In the Catholic Church, therefore, it is not permitted to repeat either of these Sacraments. For even if their leaders (2), when they come over to us from among the schismatics, are received for the good of peace and to rectify the error of schism, and even it is seen that it is feasible for them to carry on in the same offices which they had before, they are not ordained again, but, just as with their Baptism, so too their ordination remains whole; because the defect was in their separation, which is corrected by the peace that comes of unity, and not in the Sacraments, which everywhere they are found, are the same. (Augustine, Against the Letter of Paremenian. [ca A.D. 400]

AUGUSTINE on APOSTOLIC TRADITION
“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority.” (Augustine, “Baptism” 4, 24, 31)

AUGUSTINE: BAPTISM AND EUCHARIST NECESSARY FOR SALVATION
“It is an excellent thing that the Punic Christians (8) call Baptism itself nothing else but salvation, and the Sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else but life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ, hold inherently that without Baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too.” (Augustine, “Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of sins, and the Baptism of Infants, AD 412)

AUGUSTINE on BAPTISM AS REGENERATIVE
“If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this…The Sacrament of Baptism is most assuredly the Sacrament of regeneration. But just as the man who never lived cannot die, and one who has not died cannot rise again, so too one who was never born cannot be reborn…..Unless we voluntarily depart from the rule of the Christian faith it must be admitted that inasmuch as infants are, by the Sacrament of Baptism, conformed to the death of Christ, they are also freed from the serpent’s venomous bite. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own proper life, but in him who first suffered that wound.” (Augustine, “Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of sins, and the Baptism of Infants, AD 412)


AUGUSTINE SAYS TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD IN PURGATORY, BUT NOT THE DEAD IN HEAVEN OR HELL
The prayer either of the Church herself or of pious individuals is heard on behalf of certain of the dead; but it is heard for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not for the rest of their life in the body do such wickedness that they might be judged unworthy of such mercy, nor who yet lived so well that it might be supposed they have no need of such mercy. (21, 24, 2…..Augustine, “City of God” A.D. 413-426)

AUGUSTINE: SAYING THE LORD’S PRAYER TAKES AWAY SINS
The daily prayer, which Jesus Himself taught and for which reason it is called the Lord’s Prayer, certainly takes away daily sins, when we say daily: “Forgive us our debts (40).”
(Augustine, City of God” A.D. 413-426)

AUGUSTINE SAYS MARY NEVER SINNED
Having excepted the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins, - for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear Him in whom there was no sin- …..” (Augustine, “Nature and Grace A.D. 415)

DEGREE OF SIN DETERMINES LENGTH OF PUNISHMENT
“Sins which are punished by an extremely lengthy period of penalties are committed in an extremely short time (34); nor is there anyone who would suppose that the punishments should be as quickly over as the offenses were quickly performed, whether murder or adultery or sacrilege or any other crime whatsoever that is to be measured, not by how long it took to do it, but by the magnitude of its wickedness and impiety. (Augustine…”City of God” 21, 11)

AUGUSTINE: PUNISHMENT FOR OUR SINS NOT COMPLETED WHEN WE DIE, WILL BE COMPLETED AFTER WE DIE BUT BEFORE JUDGMENT DAY (IE, PURGATORY)
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment (35). But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment. (Augustine….”City of God” 21, 13)

AUGUSTINE SAYS PURGATORY WILL END BY JUDGMENT DAY
“Let it not be supposed that there are any future purgatorial punishments, except before that last and tremendous judgment.”


AUGUSTINE REITERATES THAT SINS ARE FORGIVEN IN BAPTISM
“…..are cleansed and healed, not only all the sins which are remitted in Baptism, but even those which are committed later….” (Augustine, “Marriage and Concupiscence)

AUGUSTINE on UNBAPTIZED INFANTS
“If you wish to be Catholic, do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants who are overtaken by death before they can be baptized are able to come to a forgiveness of original sins (3) (Augustine, “The Soul and Its Origin, A.D. 419-420)

AUGUSTINE: BAPTISM FORGIVES SINS
“We say that Baptism grants forgiveness (2) of all sins, and takes away crimes, not “shaving them off,” nor in such a way that “the roots of all sins are retained in the evil flesh, like the hairs shaved from the head, whence the sins may grow again to be cut down again.” (Augustine, “Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, A.D. 420)

AUGUSTINE: BAPTISM REMOVES SIN
“With the exception of the gift of Baptism, which is given against original sin, so that what was brought by generation might be taken away by regeneration, -though it also takes away actual sins, such as have ever been committed in thought, word, or deed – except therefore, for this great indulgence whereby man’s restoration begins and in which all his guilt, both original and actual, is removed, the rest of our life from the age of the use of reason, however much that life may abound in righteousness, is always in need of the forgiveness of sins….” (Augustine….Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)
“The guilt of concupiscence is remitted in Baptism….” (Augustine, “Corrections” A.D. 426 aut 427)

AUGUSTINE ON PENANCE FOR VENIAL AND MORE SERIOUS SINS
“Yet those who do penance in accord with the kind of sin they have committed are not to despair of receiving God’s mercy in the Holy Church, for the remission of their crimes, however serious. In the penitential action, however, where the crime committed was such that he who committed it is separated from the body of Christ, it is not so much the length of time as the depth of sorrow that is to be considered.” (Augustine, Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE ON PURGATORY
“That there should be some such fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, -through a certain purgatorial fire.” (Augustine, Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE: VENIAL SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN THROUGH PRAYER
“For the daily sins of the brief and trivial kind without which this life cannot be lived, the daily prayer of the faithful makes satisfaction. The faithful can say: “Our Father, who art in heave (19)”; for to such a Father they are already reborn of water and the Spirit (20). This prayer takes away completely our lesser and daily sins.” (Augustine, Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE: LIGHTER SINS GET LESS SEVERE PUNISHMENT
“Surely the lightest punishment of all will be given those who, besides the sin which they brought with them originally, have added no other; and among the rest who have added other sins, damnation there will be so much the more tolerable as their wickedness here was the less serious.” (Augustine, Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE: PRAYING FOR THE DEAD IS USEFUL, AS LONG AS THE DEAD PERSON IS NOT IN HELL OR HEAVEN
“The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. [110] Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive. When the Sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them, or when alms are given in the church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterwards be able to be helped by these things. For there is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicket that these helps are of no avail after death. There is indeed, a manner of living so good that these helps are not needed, and again a manner so evil that these helps are of no avail, once a man has passed from this life. (Augustine, Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE SAYS PRAYING FOR THE DEAD IS A UNIVERSAL TEACHING OF THE CHURCH
“We read in the books of the Maccabees that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the universal Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, wherein the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at His altar the commendation of the dead has its place. (Augustine, “The Care that Should be taken of the Dead, A.D. 421)

AUGUSTINE SAYS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION (i.e. CAN LOSE JUSTIFYING GRACE)
“But if someone already regenerate and justified should, of his own will, relapse into his evil life, certainly that man cannot say: “I have not received”; because he lost the grace he received from God and by his own free choice went to evil.” (Augustine, “Admonition and Grace, A.D. 426 aut 427)

AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION
"Those which we keep, not as being written, but as from, if observed by the whole of Christendom, are thereby understood to be committed to us by the apostles themselves or plenary Councils, and to be retained as instituted." (Ep 118).

AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION "But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).
AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION "And if anyone seek for Divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by an apostolic authority." (On Baptism 24 speaking of infant Baptism).
AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION "[T]he custom of not rebaptizing converts] ...may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings" (On


Looks Roman Catholic to me.
 
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Catholic Christian

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I would like to share an MP3 link with everyone:
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3
The reason I am posting this is to try and foster a polite, respectful exchange of ideas. This is a 1990 episode of the Bible Answer Man, a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr. Scott Hahn, a Catholic theolgian. It is a great example of Catholics and protestants exchanging views in a respectful, charitable manner - as it should be. (Eastern Orthodox too: Sorry to leave you out of the mix.) I believe everyone here (including myself) could learn from this. I hope that you will all take an hour out of your day to relax and listen to it.

(*If you like Dr. Hahn, I would suggest one other link for the future:
http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnCatholicObjectionsCOMPLETE.mp3
This is Dr. Hahn answering common objections to Catholic teachings.)

God Bless.
 
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TraderJack

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[/b]







("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 is spoken by Christ directly to Peter.
So Apparently you do not have much faith that Jesus prayer is very effective.

That prayer was for Peter, not the popes of Rome.;)

Nor are the popes of Rome the exclusive successors of Peter, just as the early church taught, ALL genuine Christians are the successors of Peter.

Any Apostolic lineage in Roman bishops was broken when the Modalist heretics Zephyrinus and Callixtus I were bishops in Rome and used their pulpit to preach the Monarchian Modalist heresy, having been led by Noetus and Praexus, who were presbyters in their churches.

And that was followed by the heretic Honorius teaching heresy in his position as bishop in Rome as well.
 
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TraderJack

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One common source . . .


. . . two distinct modes of transmission

Which is an illusion for many or the dogmas of [staff edit]Catholicism[/staff edit] have no basis in either Scripture or the early church fathers.

And when given the choice between Roman Catholic "tradition" and Scripture, as well as the consensus of the church fathers, the [staff edit]Catholic[/staff edit]chooses[staff edit]Catholic[/staff edit] redefined and reinvented "Tradition" every time. Why?

Because the Roman Catholic is commanded by his/her pope and church to do just that.
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=terryobrien80;42471281]The reason I am posting this is to try and foster a polite, respectful exchange of ideas.
Appreciate the effort, but Hanagraff is RC in his soteriology, as are all Free Willies works-based, if ya know what I mean.:cool:
 
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Trento

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That prayer was for Peter, not the popes of Rome.;)

Nor are the popes of Rome the exclusive successors of Peter, just as the early church taught, ALL genuine Christians are the successors of Peter.

Any Apostolic lineage in Roman bishops was broken when the Modalist heretics Zephyrinus and Callixtus I were bishops in Rome and used their pulpit to preach the Monarchian Modalist heresy, having been led by Noetus and Praexus, who were presbyters in their churches.

And that was followed by the heretic Honorius teaching heresy in his position as bishop in Rome as well.

Eusebius 3rd Century Historian tells us that Pope Saint Zephyrinus and Callixtus.
exerted zeal so strenuously against the blasphemies of the heretics, that they treated them with the utmost contempt. To their glory, however, they also called them the principal defenders of Christ’s divinity. Saint Zephyrinus governed the Church for nineteen years, dying in 217 as a martyr under Antoninus Caracalla. He was buried in his own cemetery on the 26th of August.

More Pope Fiction directly out of Jack Chick's books.
 
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TraderJack

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Eusebius 3rd Century Historian

Eusebius was wrote during the 4th century.

tells us that Pope Saint Zephyrinus and
Callixtus.
exerted zeal so strenuously against the blasphemies of the heretics, that they treated them with the utmost contempt.

So, Modalists considered Trinitarians to be heretics.



More Pope Fiction directly out of Jack Chick's books.
Wrong, Harnack, a source YOU cited earlier records the Modalism of those two popes.

But as it usually the case, when [staff edit] think Harnack supports their position, they hold him in high esteem, but when Harnack exposes the errors of [staff edit]Catholicism[/staff edit], they attack him.;)
 
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CaDan

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mont974x4

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does intent matter?

We know darn well that "protestant" is used quite often as an intended slam.


Does how the recipient take it matter?


Personally, I find the case when they use it as a slam a badge of honor, but I know it bothers some people.
 
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CaDan

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does intent matter?

We know darn well that "protestant" is used quite often as an intended slam.


Does how the recipient take it matter?


Personally, I find the case when they use it as a slam a badge of honor, but I know it bothers some people.

Yes.

Yes.
 
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