Hocus Pocus ????

[Trento]

On the essentials, yes.



Really? Name them. Name any two Bible believing churches who differ on any of the doctrines the Bible defines as essential.

You can't do it.

I give this challenge to Roman Catholics all the time and all they can ever do is to either name a disagreement over a peripheral issue or matter of adiapheron or name a church that isn't even a Christian church.

I examined for myself what the different denominations taught they not only disagreed on little things—like whether women should wear hats to church, or whether you had to be baptized by immersion or sprinkling—but they also disagreed on important things, like baptism in general, communion, how one can be saved, who was in charge of the church, who was going to heaven, and many other things. If Scripture was the only legitimate source of authority, shouldn’t the Church—or churches—be united around one simple, clear teaching from Scripture?
2 Peter 1.20: "No scripture is of any private interpretation, but holy men of God spoke as the Holy Spirit instructed them." Obviously all the different Christian denominations disagree because they all have different interpretations of the Bible which they each believe is the most accurate. It struck me that if they all have different interpretations of the Bible, then they must be interpreting it on their own. But 2 Peter 1.20 warns that the Bible must not be interpreted privately. Something is definitely wrong here.


Two basic problems:

1. If the Bible is the only support for its own inspiration, then it is merely proving itself which is illogical. There has to be some other authority that can validate the inspiration of the Bible.​

2. If the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians, then why are the different churches so divided? Again there has to be some other authority which can decide how the Bible is to be understood.​

If we Love Him we would follow His word when He Prayed to the Father.​

He even makes unity a means by which the world might believe that the Father sent the Son (John 17:21,23), and prays that it will be as profound as the unity of the Trinity itself (John 17:21-22). ​

St. Paul makes stirring up division a grounds for virtual exclusion from the Christian community (Romans 16:17), and says that divisions (in effect) divide Christ (1 Corinthians 1:13). ​

Our Lord designed His Church to speak with one voice. One of the undeniable aspects of unity and oneness in the Bible is the constant warning (especially in the writings of St. Paul) against (and prohibition of) divisions, schism, and sectarianism, either by command, or by counter-example​

It is inevitable that thousands of religions will result from sincere people forging a personal understanding using Scripture in isolation of revealed truth, given and passed down by the Apostles through the Church instigated for that purpose (Eph.3:10).​

Promoting Scripture alone is a formula made to create division and uncertainty within the people of God.- It validates any individual's position against all others with no way to have a final authorative decision. ​

 

[narnia59]

So who are these that are called "dead" ?

It can depend on the context, but the NT takes a definite shift in language to demonstrate that 'dead' has changed. Physical death does not equal spiritual death. So looking at the specific scripture and understanding which is being discussed (or both) is important. To try to make all scripture in the NT apply to physical death doesn't work.

The OT admonition to not deal with sorcerers or try to conjure the dead is still applicable. We should never try to access a dead spirit to learn the future, etc.

However, this is quite different than coming to the city of Jerusalem, which the NT tells us is how we now approach God, and recognize the living spirits who have been perfected are also approached by us when we do this. Christianity is not just a 1:1 activity between me and Jesus -- it's about being part of the family of God. They are our family, they are alive in the body of Christ, they care about our welfare, hear our petitions and add their prayers to ours. The body of Christ is not split into two parts -- those physically alive and physically dead. It is one -- all of us who are spiritually alive in Christ.

 

[WarEagle]

I examined for myself what the different denominations taught they not only disagreed on little things

OK. Go ahead and name any two denominations that disagree over any of the doctrines defined in the Bible as being essential, tell us what those doctrines are and how they disagree.

If Scripture was the only legitimate source of authority, shouldn’t the Church—or churches—be united around one simple, clear teaching from Scripture?

Yes. In fact, the fact that Christian denominations are united on the essential doctrines is good evidence that it is the only legitimate source of authority.

Obviously all the different Christian denominations disagree because they all have different interpretations of the Bible which they each believe is the most accurate.

OK. Name any two Christian denominations that disagree on any of the doctrines defined by scripture as essential.

2. If the Bible is the only source of authority for Christians, then why are the different churches so divided?

If it isn't, then why are we united around it's essential teachings?

Our Lord designed His Church to speak with one voice.

I see. In this thread, one of your fellow Roman Catholics has stated that the Trinity is a false doctrine. Is this a commonly held belief of Roman Catholicism? Or is it a case of a Roman Catholic disagreeing with other Roman Catholics?

One of the undeniable aspects of unity and oneness in the Bible is the constant warning (especially in the writings of St. Paul) against (and prohibition of) divisions, schism, and sectarianism, either by command, or by counter-example

Where?

If this is true, then why did Jesus rebuke the disciples for condemning another group of His followers?

Promoting Scripture alone is a formula made to create division and uncertainty within the people of God.

2,000 years and all it's done is to promote unity, not division.

It validates any individual's position against all others with no way to have a final authorative decision.

Not true. The Bible is objective and authoritative. The individual's position is subject to it.

 

[WarEagle]

Not quite. Fundamentalism does hold that scripture is inerrant, but they usually claim that God is their final authority, not scripture.

Again, show me the fundamentalist who says that their faith is based on anything other than God's word.

One of the most basic tenets of fundamentalism is that we consider God's word to be the authoritative and objective authority by which all matters of doctrine and practice must be judged.

Of course, as you've already explained, the honest thing to do is to admit that scripture is the entirety of their Christianity. Many, however, still cling to the belief that God is the final authority for fundamentalists.

Again, show me any fundamentalist who says that Christianity is based on anything but the word of God.

 

[sunlover1]

It can depend on the context, but the NT takes a definite shift in language to demonstrate that 'dead' has changed. Physical death does not equal spiritual death. So looking at the specific scripture and understanding which is being discussed (or both) is important. To try to make all scripture in the NT apply to physical death doesn't work.
Okay.
So... There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death?

The OT admonition to not deal with sorcerers or try to conjure the dead is still applicable. We should never try to access a dead spirit to learn the future, etc.

But doesnt it say not to pray to the dead?
(OT)

However, this is quite different than coming to the city of Jerusalem, which the NT tells us is how we now approach God, and recognize the living spirits who have been perfected are also approached by us when we do this.

Really? What makes you think so?
And is this something from the Scriptures (Any version,
any book is fine)

Christianity is not just a 1:1 activity between me and Jesus -- it's about being part of the family of God. They are our family, they are alive in the body of Christ, they care about our welfare,

hear our petitions and add their prayers to ours.

How can we know this, and why would they hear our
petitions?

The body of Christ is not split into two parts -- those physically alive and physically dead. It is one -- all of us who are spiritually alive in Christ

I agree.

Thank you,
sunlover

 

[lionroar0]

How many tracks do we have on this choo choo now?

Peace

 

[Thekla]

How many tracks do we have on this choo choo now?

Peace

and how many times this same discussion

 

[sunlover1]

and how many times this same discussion

About who's dead and who's not?

 

[Thekla]

from another thread:

But these pray along with those who genuinely pray—not only the high priest but also the angels
who “rejoice in heaven over one repenting sinner more than over ninety-nine righteous that need
not repentance,.” and also the souls of the saints already at rest. Two instances make this plain. The
first is where Raphael offers their service to God for Tobit and Sarah. After both had prayed, the
scripture says, “The prayer of both was heard before the presence of the great Raphael and he was
sent to heal them both,.” and Raphael himself, when explaining his angelic commission at God’s
command to help them, says:
“Even now when you prayed, and Sarah your daughter-in-law, I brought the memorial of your
prayer before the Holy One,.” and shortly after, “I am Raphael, one of the Seven angels who present
the prayers of saints and enter in before the glory of the Holy One. Thus, according to Raphael’s
account at least, prayer with fasting and almsgiving and righteousness is a good thing.
The second instance is in the Books of the Maccabees where Jeremiah appears in exceeding “white
haired glory” so that a wondrous and most majestic authority was about him, and stretches forth
his right hand and delivers to Judas a golden sword, and there witnesses to him another saint already
at rest saying, “This is he who prays much for the people and the sacred city, God’s prophet
Jeremiah.” For it is absurd when knowledge, though manifested to the worthy through a mirror and
in a riddle for the present, is then revealed face to face not to think that the like is true of all other
excellences as well, that they who prepare in this life beforehand are made strictly perfect then.
Now one of these excellences in the strictest sense according to the divine word is love for one’s
neighbor, and this accordingly we are compelled to think of as possessed in a far higher degree by
saints already at rest than by those who are in human weakness and wrestle on along with the
weaker. It is not only here that “if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it and if one
member is glorified, all the members rejoice with it” in the experience of those who love their
brethren, for it beseems the love also of those who are beyond the present life to say “I have anxiety​

for all the churches:

From Origen on Prayer, pg 22. early 3rd Century

 

[narnia59]

Okay.
So... There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death?


But doesnt it say not to pray to the dead?

(OT)
Yes, there is a physical death and a spiritual death.

No, it doesn't say to not pray to the dead. It says to not 'consult' the dead'. As in -- ask them for advice or information. Big difference. Also, keep in mind the word 'pray' has more than one meaning, especially across time. For example, in old English one might say to another, "I pray thee to grant my request", meaning please hear my request. It doesn't necessarily mean offering worship.

However, this is quite different than coming to the city of Jerusalem, which the NT tells us is how we now approach God, and recognize the living spirits who have been perfected are also approached by us when we do this.

Really? What makes you think so?
And is this something from the Scriptures (Any version,
any book is fine)

It's from the 12th chapter of Hebrews. Paul has just given us a litany of OT saints (chapter 11), reminded us that we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses, and we should persevere in the race. He then contrasts Moses experience with approaching God (a mountain that cannot be touched where we're trembling with fear) to our experience as Christians, beginning in verse 22 of Chapter 12 -- "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel"

How can we know this, and why would they hear our
petitions?

We know that they "surround us" (and therefore must be aware of us), that they are living in the body of Christ, that Paul ties their presence to our faithfully running the race, and in the book of Revelations the 'prayers of the saints' are presented by the angels to the throne of God. As members of the body of Christ, why would they not fall under the admonition to pray for us?

Thank you,
sunlover

Thank you too.

 

[PaladinValer]

So who are these that are called "dead" ?

Departed doesn't mean dead; that is the whole jist.

And what makes "death" even better now is that, thanks to Jesus, God's Presence is there even in Sheol.

Alleluia! That means death's sting is GONE! That means the Holy One's Sacrifice is our GAIN! Is it not said that "death is gain" thanks to Christ? Especially to believe at that!

The Holy Spirit does not abandon us for God does not abandon us, as the Holy Spirit is God. And the Holy Spirit is everywhere and dwells in/with each Baptized Christian. People seem to forget that we are not just "related" to God through the Son, but through the Holy Spirit too. If the Son is the cornerstone, then the Holy Spirit is the bond that unites all in the Son and reconciles us with the Father.

Prayer and petitions are spiritual; they may be utters or silently expressed, but the core of them is something nigh celestial. It is probably the closest to what might be called a heavenly language. And it is always in the Holy Spirit we pray and petition, for it is a charism of the Holy Spirit that He completes and makes whole and perfect.

Those experiencing existence outside time and space, be it in sheol or in heaven, do NOT loose the Holy Spirit. They still have it. And thus, they are still members of the Holy Church of God.

 

[sunlover1]

(OT)
Yes, there is a physical death and a spiritual death.

No, it doesn't say to not pray to the dead. It says to not 'consult' the dead'. As in -- ask them for advice or information. Big difference.

Thank you narnia.
Yes, that's a big difference.

Also, keep in mind the word 'pray' has more than one meaning, especially across time. For example, in old English one might say to another, "I pray thee to grant my request", meaning please hear my request. It doesn't necessarily mean offering worship.

Right, you would need to know the context to know
how the word is used.

It's from the 12th chapter of Hebrews. Paul has just given us a litany of OT saints (chapter 11), reminded us that we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses, and we should persevere in the race. He then contrasts Moses experience with approaching God (a mountain that cannot be touched where we're trembling with fear) to our experience as Christians, beginning in verse 22 of Chapter 12 -- "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel"

WOW, that's a lot of reading and research there huh?
Thank you, now I know where I can find that.
I want to try to understand.
You explain very well.

We know that they "surround us" (and therefore must be aware of us), that they are living in the body of Christ, that Paul ties their presence to our faithfully running the race,

I'd think so.

and in the book of Revelations the 'prayers of the saints' are presented by the angels to the throne of God.

I'd have to review this one.
Angels presenting the prayers of the saints,
imo, is a different subject and I cant see
the connection.
They are ministering spirits, God's messengers.

As members of the body of Christ, why would they not fall under the admonition to pray for us?

Dunno.
I'd think they'd have better things to do there.
Once in Heaven there are no more tears.
When I think of prayer, I think of oftentimes,
tearful requests for help in times of trouble.

But thank you very much.
I'm just trying to understand.

sunlover

 

[PaladinValer]

Okay.
So... There is a physical death and there is a spiritual death?

Physical death is biological death. It affects only the body. Yet we as persons are not just body, but soul as well. And our soul cannot be destroyed nor can it die.

Spiritual death is sin. We damage our soul and corrupt our nature even further each time we sin. If we do not contritely repent and reconcile with God, which means a rejection of His Love, His Peace, then we will eventually become totally depraved.

But doesnt it say not to pray to the dead?
(OT)

They aren't dead. Body+soul makes a whole person, but you can exist with just soul.

Really? What makes you think so?
And is this something from the Scriptures (Any version,
any book is fine)

God heard Jonah's cry even when he was where does the Bible say? Sheol, the abode of the dead.

Even if you want to say that's metaphorical/symbolic, it would be illogical to use a symbol/metaphore of something that isn't so.

How can we know this, and why would they hear our
petitions?

The Holy Spirit is the answer.

 

[narnia59]

Dunno.
I'd think they'd have better things to do there.
Once in Heaven there are no more tears.
When I think of prayer, I think of oftentimes,
tearful requests for help in times of trouble.

But thank you very much.
I'm just trying to understand.

sunlover

You're welcome, and we're all just trying to understand.

Keep in mind that the verse in Revelations that says there will be no more tears also says they sit at the throne of God, serving Him day and night. What better way to be of service to God than to be powerful prayer warriors for those in the body of Christ who are still running the race? How better to serve Christ than to build up his body?

Just some things to ponder.

 

[narnia59]

Yes. In fact, the fact that Christian denominations are united on the essential doctrines is good evidence that it is the only legitimate source of authority.

I think I did that. Unless you reject that the Lutherans, Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Church of Christ, etc not Christian denominations?

Can you give us a list of the "Christian" denominations you say are united on the essential doctrines?

 

[HisKid1973]

Either way you still assume they are taking our prayer requests..Be nice if we had an example of the dicipless prayers to those other than to God, like Jesus"s example to the Father in the sacred scriptures..That would have been the perfect place with the great cloud of witnesses, wouldn't it? Sure would have done away with this thread huh!

 

[sunlover1]

Departed doesn't mean dead; that is the whole jist.

And what makes "death" even better now is that, thanks to Jesus, God's Presence is there even in Sheol.

Alleluia! That means death's sting is GONE! That means the Holy One's Sacrifice is our GAIN! Is it not said that "death is gain" thanks to Christ? Especially to believe at that!

Right, to die is gain.

The Holy Spirit does not abandon us for God does not abandon us, as the Holy Spirit is God. And the Holy Spirit is everywhere and dwells in/with each Baptized Christian. People seem to forget that we are not just "related" to God through the Son, but through the Holy Spirit too. If the Son is the cornerstone, then the Holy Spirit is the bond that unites all in the Son and reconciles us with the Father.

Interesting thoughts, thank you PV.

Prayer and petitions are spiritual; they may be utters or silently expressed, but the core of them is something nigh celestial.

It is probably the closest to what might be called a heavenly language. And it is always in the Holy Spirit we pray and petition, for it is a charism of the Holy Spirit that He completes and makes whole and perfect.

Those experiencing existence outside time and space, be it in sheol or in heaven, do NOT loose the Holy Spirit. They still have it. And thus, they are still members of the Holy Church of God

Sheol?
IF you're talking about the grave then I agree.
We're all members, one body.



Thanks Paladin, good to see that excitement.
I'd be more excited right along with you but
am sleepy, in the middle of a blizzard, and
dont feel like getting all this work done that I
have to do.
But I'm cheering with you on the "inside"!

 

[sunlover1]

Physical death is biological death. It affects only the body. Yet we as persons are not just body, but soul as well. And our soul cannot be destroyed nor can it die.

Spiritual death is sin. We damage our soul and corrupt our nature even further each time we sin. If we do not contritely repent and reconcile with God, which means a rejection of His Love, His Peace, then we will eventually become totally depraved.



They aren't dead. Body+soul makes a whole person, but you can exist with just soul.



God heard Jonah's cry even when he was where does the Bible say? Sheol, the abode of the dead.

Even if you want to say that's metaphorical/symbolic, it would be illogical to use a symbol/metaphore of something that isn't so.



The Holy Spirit is the answer.

What do u mean when you say the Holy Spirit is
the answer?
And right I agree that that would be illogical.

sunlover

 

[narnia59]

Either way you still assume they are taking our prayer requests..Be nice if we had an example of their prayers to those other than to God like Jesus did in the sacred scriptures..That would have been the perfect place with the great cloud of witnesses, wouldn't it? Sure would have done away with this thread huh!

Yes, it would have been nice.

And others assume they can't see or hear us, but it seems unlikely to me that they could 'surround' us without being aware of us.

And others assume they are watching and hearing us, yet not participating in assisting us. Kind of makes it seem like a spectator sport, doesn't it? I'm here in heaven watching all those who still haven't made it struggle along! Isn't this fun!! Oooh, look at that one take a tumble!!

Somehow I can't quite see it that way. I see them in service to God for the building of the body of Christ, and assisting us joyfully with their prayers, just like any true family would do for each other.

 

[sunlover1]

You're welcome, and we're all just trying to understand.

Certainly

Keep in mind that the verse in Revelations that says there will be no more tears also says they sit at the throne of God, serving Him day and night. What better way to be of service to God than to be powerful prayer warriors for those in the body of Christ who are still running the race? How better to serve Christ than to build up his body?

Just some things to ponder.[/quote]

I guess I was under the impression that we will just
spend all of our time in Worship then, waiting for the
rest to join us.
Or do we all go together?

Yes, LOTS to ponder.

And always more.

sunlover