Hocus Pocus ????

[lionroar0]

I was thinking more along the lines of what the Bible says, than superstitious rituals.

Christ said to His apostles that those sins that you forgive are fogiven and those that are not are not.


Peace

 

[DarkLegend28]

However, I hope you are well aware that catholocism has adopted more pagan rites and traditions than any other christian denomination.

 

[lionroar0]

...as well as all contact with the dead.



Deuteronomy 18:11
or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Let's try this again.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2018%20;&version=49;

NASB
11or one who casts a spell, (L)or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

YLT
11and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead.

NKJV

11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.



KJV

11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/necromancer
1.a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art. 2.magic in general, esp. that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.

1. <LI minmax_bound="true">The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future. <LI minmax_bound="true">Black magic; sorcery.
2. Magic qualities.

1. one who practices magic or sorcery [syn: sorcerer] 2. one who practices divination by conjuring up the dead


Praying to Saints is not conjuring up the dead.

Then it looks like the atheist is smarter than the Roman Catholic.

They also that there is no God and the Saints and God are dead.

Of course they do. However, they're still physically dead, still gone from this world into the next.

That makes them dead to us.

Physically yes but not divided from the Holy Spirit and the Body of Christ which all Christians have. We are united with them through the death and ressurrection of Christ.

It's always the other guy, isn't it. Never able to take responsibility for your own actions, are you?

Well if you stop attacking and actually try to understand us and dialogue. Then maybe people wouldn't be so defensive.

Like telling us what we are doing when we are praying to the Saints.

When we perfectly know it is not necromancy.

Where does the Bible say that violating God's command not to have contact with the dead is an act of the Holy Spirit?

Because we are not involved in necromancy. But asking those united with in Christ to pray for us.

And may you repent and get right with God.

I already have by partaking of God's grace through the Sacrament of Reconsilation.

OK. Let me try this again: how does the fact that human beings die mean that God is dead?

By stating that the Saints who are alive in Christ and are alive with in the Body of Christ wich is the Church cannot pray with and for us.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

However, I hope you are well aware that catholocism has adopted more pagan rites and traditions than any other christian denomination.

If you are willing to present the evidence to your claim then we can proceed with a discussion.

Peace

 

[tulc]

However, I hope you are well aware that catholocism has adopted more pagan rites and traditions than any other christian denomination.

Wouldn't that depend on what you consider pagan rites and traditions?
tulc(just curious)

 

[lionroar0]

Wouldn't that depend on what you consider pagan rites and traditions?
tulc(just curious)

I know your a coffee drinker but I just got some really good Hot Cocoa.

Would you like some?

Peace

 

[tulc]

I know your a coffee drinker but I just got some really good Hot Cocoa.

Would you like some?

Peace

Cococa would be delightful! I can scrounge up some marshmallows if you'd like some?
tulc(or cookies! anyone want some cookies?)

 

[lionroar0]

Cococa would be delightful! I can scrounge up some marshmallows if you'd like some?
tulc(or cookies! anyone want some cookies?)

I got two boxes of cookies from work.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

Let's try this again.

Yes, by all means, go ahead and try to justify a Roman Catholic practice that God has condemned.

Physically yes

Right. They are dead.

We are united with them through the death and ressurrection of Christ.

They are dead. We are alive. We are on this side of death. They are on the other. We are not allowed to attempt to reach through that side to contact them, just as they are unable to reach through to this side to contact us.

Well if you stop attacking and actually try to understand us and dialogue. Then maybe people wouldn't be so defensive.

Like I said, it's always the other with you, isn't it?

When we perfectly know it is not necromancy.

You may not believe that it is, but that's exactly what it is.

Because we are not involved in necromancy. But asking those united with in Christ to pray for us.

No, praying to the dead to ask them to pray for you.

I already have by partaking of God's grace through the Sacrament of Reconsilation.

Not found anywhere in scripture.

By stating that the Saints who are alive in Christ and are alive with in the Body of Christ wich is the Church cannot pray with and for us.

One has nothing to do with the other.

I am explaining to you that the dead are dead. That does not mean that God is dead, unless you're going to try to tell me that God is a dead human, which, believe it or not, wouldn't be the most unbiblical thing Roman Catholicism teaches.

 

[narnia59]

It seems like I remember that there was something different about Jesus that gives Him authority that we don't have. Now, what was that.....oh yeah: HE IS GOD AND WE'RE NOT.

Your entire point however, has been that the gulf between the two shall never meet. It's evident from Scripture they do indeed meet, and it is through Christ. Which is very consistent with what those of us who see value in the prayers of the saints have been saying.

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

We are not contacting the 'dead' when we petition saints for their prayers, we petition those who have heard the voice of the Son of God and live. Big difference.

Also, I would remember that we have received many spiritual gifts and abilities through our life in Christ. These are not things we can do on our own, but through faith and life in him much of His authority is manifest in our lives (or should be).

 

[tulc]

You may not believe that it is, but that's exactly what it is.

No actually that's what you believe they are doing, in fact it's not at all the same thing.
tulc(care for a cookie?)

 

[PaladinValer]

Yes, by all means, go ahead and try to justify a Roman Catholic practice that God has condemned.

Actually, God condemned iconoclasm. He spoke through the Holy Spirit and Christianity adhered.

Right. They are dead.

False; they are alive. To say they are dead is to embrace soul death, which isn't orthodox.

Souls cannot die, being life itself.

They are dead. We are alive. We are on this side of death. They are on the other. We are not allowed to attempt to reach through that side to contact them, just as they are unable to reach through to this side to contact us.

And the implications of this is that God has abadoned them. The Bible says that God isn't the god of death but the God of Life. In addition, He has never abandoned anyone; we abandoned Him, but He will always accept anyone back. Logically, the only conclusion is that death doesn't exist in the fashion you incorrectly adhere to. This is proven in the Bible by the fact that what Jesus did with the crucifixion is that He conquered death and utterly destroyed the gates of death for ever, thus opening the Presence of God to those in sheol.

Since God's Presence is now fealt in sheol, and that is where we go to at death, that means that those there are still in Communion with Him, just as we here on Earth are in Communion with Him. This Communion is the Kingdom of God which exists in three Churches: the Church Militant on Earth, the Church Triumphant which is Heaven, and the Church Expecting, which exists in Sheol.

If we all share in the same Holy Spirit, and all prayer is truly spiritual in character at its very core, then we are still connected to those who've passed on. This "Communion of Saints" is a historically ancient belief and is a part of the Apostle's Creed, which, at least in the West, is still a primary aspect of our Baptismal Covenant with God.

Your view is therefore not Scriptural, nor does it adhere to Tradition or even Reason.

Like I said, it's always the other with you, isn't it?

At least he is trying; you are not.

You may not believe that it is, but that's exactly what it is.

No; he's absolutely right, because your concept of death is not Christian as explained above.

No, praying to the dead to ask them to pray for you.

Since they are not dead, your objection is unconsequential.

Not found anywhere in scripture.

Nor is the Trinity.

However, the Sacrament of Holy Confession and Absolution is found throughout the Bible. Wherever people are sorry for their sins, change their minds, confess, and make good at what they did (gave back what was stolen, etc), that is Reconciliation of a Penitent.

I am explaining to you that the dead are dead.

If anything is unbiblical, this most certainly is.

That does not mean that God is dead, unless you're going to try to tell me that God is a dead human, which, believe it or not, wouldn't be the most unbiblical thing Roman Catholicism teaches.

Thinking that our God is a god of death like your words depict you believing is absolutely unbiblical.

Here, the "Roman" Catholic Church believes in God's revealed truth. Thank God for its defense of this most beneficial, glorious, and Godly doctrine.

 

[DarkLegend28]

If you are willing to present the evidence to your claim then we can proceed with a discussion.

Peace

PM me.

 

[Trento]

I am explaining to you that the dead are dead. That does not mean that God is dead, unless you're going to try to tell me that God is a dead human, which, believe it or not, wouldn't be the most unbiblical thing Roman Catholicism teaches.

Are we to adhear to your version of what the bible teaches oor the men who's testimony established the basic dogmas of the Christian faith?
Orthodox Christianity accepts the intercession and invocation of the saints. IF I am willing to accept the testimony of the Fathers of the Church when it came to such abstruse dogmas as that of the Trinity (three hypostases, one ousia) and Chalcedonian Christology (two ousia, one hypostasis), as well as the final canon of the New Testament Scriptures which was finally settled by St. Athanasius, then I must also accept their testimony concerning the intercession and invocation of the saints. That is, if they had ever said anything about it. If St. Athanasius can fight for homoousios over homoiousios; and, in similarly abstract language Sts. Gregory the Theologian and Basil the Great could fight for the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, then certainly they would have commented on the error of the intercession and invocation of the saints. That is, if it existed in their day.
I vaguely assumed that this “pagan practice” must have developed later, or outside of the truly Christian spheres in which these basic dogmas of our faith were formulated but Testimony to this practice in Rome, Palestine, Syria, Africa, or Asia Minor separately, was widespread across the ancient world implying a common apostolic foundation. this testimony came not from some random, half-pagan “saint” from the backwaters of Mesopotamia, Cilicia, or the Pentapolis but from the defenders and promoters of the Nicene Creed: the Fathers who had suffered, struggled, and died for the doctrine of the Trinity, the full divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and who described this relationship in language too rarified for me to fully comprehend to this day These doctrines most Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians still hold in common—in the face of all that we disagree on. The witness, therefore, of these Christian giants must be taken as more than simply “the doctrine of men”. They prayed to the saints without considering them to be demi-gods; they asked the prayers of those who to whom the Psalmist and Christ said, “Ye are gods.”Could the Church Which Christ promised would withstand the “Gates of Hades” really have apostatized within a generation of its freedom across the breadth of the entire ancient world?

 

[Trento]

Medjugorje Special to Air on Fox News

Queen of Peace Productions has provided footage of Medjugorje to Fox News for an upcoming "Miracles" special.

Fox producers also interviewed the visionary Ivan for the program, and there will be a comparison drawn with Fatima.

The program will air first at 1 PM EST on Christmas Eve (12/24/07) and then again at 3 PM EST on Christmas Day.

 

[WarEagle]

Are we to adhear to your version of what the bible teaches oor the men who's testimony established the basic dogmas of the Christian faith?

First of all, the basic doctrines of the Christian faith weren't based on men's testimonies, they were based on God's word.

Second, men's testimonies are always to be judged in light of God's word, not the other way around.

Orthodox Christianity accepts the intercession and invocation of the saints.

Biblical Christianity does not.

 

[WarEagle]

No actually that's what you believe they are doing, in fact it's not at all the same thing.

No, that is what they are doing. You can try to spin it any way you like, but the fact remains that it is Unbiblical and God has condemned it.

 

[Trento]

First of all, the basic doctrines of the Christian faith weren't based on men's testimonies, they were based on God's word.

Second, men's testimonies are always to be judged in light of God's word, not the other way around.



Biblical Christianity does not.

With Bible alone Christianity No one will come to the same conclusion because they use scripture to satisfy their individual purpose. That's why when a false teaching by misinterpreting the scripture came up like the Trinity the Church reverted back to when the New testament was put together to see what was passed on by the Apostles to the first Bishops like Timothy and Titus.Then to others who knew the Apostles like Ignatius.
Show us where the Bible says, other than God, where the Bible is the only divine authority by which you can know divine truth. If you can’t find it, then you are preaching a false gospel – a gospel which claims that only the Bible is your only divine authority.

2 Thess 2:15 says that the Apostolic teaching came both in "word of mouth" and "in letter," and that we are obliged to hold to both.
Thus we have two sources, not one, and that dictum is by the decree of Scripture. So if one is really paying attention to Scripture, then he must acknowledge that Scripture never claims to be the sole source or authority for what one is to believe.
There are other such passages showing us that Apostolic teaching was more than what was written in the Bible (1 Cor 11:34; Eph 3:3; 2 John 2:12; 2 Tim 2:2).
The philosophy of the Reformation is religious rationalism Human reason cannot logically constitute itself judge of the supernatural, for the supernatural is beyond its sphere of reckoning. In attempting to do so, it is no longer calm reason; it is blind rationalism; it is reason inebriated And such in its effect is the principle of private judgment which is the foundation of the Reformation.

 

[WarEagle]

With Bible alone Christianity No one will come to the same conclusion because they use scripture to satisfy their individual purpose.

Then they're wrong and should be corrected.

That's why when a false teaching by misinterpreting the scripture came up like the Trinity

I see. So then the Trinity is a false teaching?

Show us where the Bible says, other than God, where the Bible is the only divine authority by which you can know divine truth. If you can’t find it, then you are preaching a false gospel – a gospel which claims that only the Bible is your only divine authority.

As you well know, I didn't say that the Bible is the only authority, but the final authority, the authoritative authority.

2 Thess 2:15 says that the Apostolic teaching came both in "word of mouth" and "in letter," and that we are obliged to hold to both.
Thus we have two sources, not one, and that dictum is by the decree of Scripture.

Yes, we have the scriptures and the preaching of those scriptures but the bottom line is that they're still the scriptures.

So if one is really paying attention to Scripture, then he must acknowledge that Scripture never claims to be the sole source or authority for what one is to believe.

Actually, the Bible tells us constantly to use scripture to determine such things as what is sound doctrine, whether a teacher, preacher, or prophet is from God, whether our actions are permissible before God, whether or not we're "in the faith", whether or not somebody has sinned, etc.

There are other such passages showing us that Apostolic teaching was more than what was written in the Bible (1 Cor 11:34; Eph 3:3; 2 John 2:12; 2 Tim 2:2).

That's right. It is other than what is written in the Bible. However, it is not contradictory to what is written in the Bible and it is still subject to the objective standard of the Bible to determine whether or not it's true.

 

[Dannager]

First of all, the basic doctrines of the Christian faith weren't based on men's testimonies, they were based on God's word.

You mean the Bible, which is composed utterly of men's testimonies? I'm afraid you've got yourself a catch-22 here.

Second, men's testimonies are always to be judged in light of God's word, not the other way around.

Eek, there's that nasty catch-22 again.

Biblical Christianity does not.

Sure, but confining Christianity to the Bible is lazy theology.