Hocus Pocus ????

[Gary51]

Paul states that we are His body, His Church.

Either His body is one, or is not.

And that is your entire proof that we are post resurrection?

Do you or do you not have proof?

 

[Thekla]

And that is your entire proof that we are post resurrection?

Do you or do you not have proof?

the resurrection happened 2000 years ago; I thought that was a given . Christ conquered death - even then the tombs were opened.

Through His resurrection, death was conquered.
His body -- all in Him -- is one.

 

[tulc]

No I dont see what you mean... But I do see that you would like to cloud the issue.

uhmmm actually that portion you highlighted? and then the explanation I gave? That's what I meant, I'm sorry if you thought I'm trying to conceal or obscure something but honestly that was the entire meaning of what I said.
What do you think I meant?
tulc(pretty much what you see is all I am...if you then add coffee)

 

[narnia59]

The dead are dead. The living are living. And never the twain shall meet.

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. "

Sounds to me like Paul thinks we meet. We meet when we approach God as a Christian in the city of the living God.

 

[WarEagle]

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. "

Sounds to me like Paul thinks we meet. We meet when we approach God as a Christian in the city of the living God.

No, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the living and dead interact.

In fact, we're told in Jesus' story of Lazarus and the Rich Man that there is a gulf between the two that cannot be crossed.

 

[narnia59]

No, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the living and dead interact.

In fact, we're told in Jesus' story of Lazarus and the Rich Man that there is a gulf between the two that cannot be crossed.

Um, that gulf is between the two dead people, Lazarus and the rich man. who wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in cool water and soothe his burning tongue. You are correct in one aspect -- it is the true chasm between the living and the dead the Bible speaks about.

You will note that when the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers (still living) to warn them, Abraham in no way indicates this is not possible or forbidden. All he says is that if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

 

[narnia59]

No, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the living and dead interact.

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

[WarEagle]

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

It seems like I remember that there was something different about Jesus that gives Him authority that we don't have. Now, what was that.....oh yeah: HE IS GOD AND WE'RE NOT.

 

[lionroar0]

No, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that the living and dead interact.

The transfiguration.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

It seems like I remember that there was something different about Jesus that gives Him authority that we don't have. Now, what was that.....oh yeah: HE IS GOD AND WE'RE NOT.

ANd them being able to be seen and heard by His apostles is an interaction.

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

ANd them being able to be seen and heard by His apostles is an interaction.

Peace

And at what point during the meeting did they try to pray to them or contact them in any way?

 

[lionroar0]

The Bible is very clear that the dead pray for us.

Agreed

However, where Roman Catholicism is wrong is that it insists that we're to pray to the dead, when the Bible condemns such an act.

NO what the Bible condems is the conjuration of Spirits.

Asking Saints in heaven to pray is not conjurism.

And those who answered you are what the Bible calls "familiar spirits".

The difference between familiar spirits and asking Saints is that Saints are those that have been glorifed and justified by God. They have lived and died.

Familiar spirits are those that are contacted through conjuration.

And, like most Roman Catholic beliefs, there is nothing in the Bible to support this.

St Paul talks about the gifts of the Spirits given to the Body of Christ.

I belive it's eithe 1sr or 2nd Conrinthians

Prayers to the saints are never answered by God or by the dead saint. If they're answered at all, they're answered by demons masquerading as dead saints.

If the Saints are dead then God is dead too and you are now walking a verr dangerous path by making such an accusation. You are in danger of commiting the unforgiveable Sin.

May God forgive you.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

And at what point during the meeting did they try to pray to them or contact them in any way?

And why would they since they are walking with Christ in the flesh?

Peace

 

[WarEagle]

NO what the Bible condems is the conjuration of Spirits.

Actually, it condemns any contact with the dead.

The difference between familiar spirits and asking Saints is that Saints are those that have been glorifed and justified by God. They have lived and died.

They died? So then, you admit that they're dead. That's a good start.

St Paul talks about the gifts of the Spirits given to the Body of Christ.

I belive it's eithe 1sr or 2nd Conrinthians

Well why don't you go ahead and look that up and get back to me.

If the Saints are dead then God is dead too and you are now walking a verr dangerous path by making such an accusation. You are in danger of commiting the unforgiveable Sin.

First of all, the only "unforgivable sin" is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. None of your precious dead people are the Holy Spirit.

Second, that these people are dead in no way implies that God is dead.

May God forgive you.

And may you repent and get right with God.

 

[lionroar0]

Actually, it condemns any contact with the dead.

No what it comdems is conjuration of Spirits.

From Leviticus 19:31
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=19&verse=31&version=31&context=verse
31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6

'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Deuteronomy 18:11
or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

1 Samuel 28:8
So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

1 Samuel 28:13
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

I don't see anywhere here where God prohibits prayers to Saints. I do see God prohibiting conjuration of spirits.

They died? So then, you admit that they're dead. That's a good start.

That is exactly what an atheist would say.

A Christian would know that the Saints have eternal life through Christ.

Well why don't you go ahead and look that up and get back to me.

Maybe if you were more Charitable in your discussion.

First of all, the only "unforgivable sin" is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. None of your precious dead people are the Holy Spirit.

Second, that these people are dead in no way implies that God is dead.

The unforivable sin is attributing to Satan the work of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=3&version=31

29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

Stating that prayers to the Saints which is the work of the Holy Spirit are really demons maquerading as Saints. Is blaspheming against the work of the Holy Spirit and God.

May God have mercy on you.

Stating that those that have gained eternal live and are alive in Christ are dead does imply that God is dead.

Is it because that God is alive that we can ask the Saints to pray with and for us. He is the giver of Life.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

And may you repent and get right with God.

I already have. I went to the Sacrament of Reconcilation to prapare for the Birth Of Jesus Christ.

Peace

 

[LJSGM]

1 Corinthians 15

51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Do we sleep unto the resurrection, when all will be judged?

 

[WarEagle]

I already have. I went to the Sacrament of Reconcilation to prapare for the Birth Of Jesus Christ.

Peace

I was thinking more along the lines of what the Bible says, than superstitious rituals.

 

[LJSGM]

oh, here's another one

Matthew 9


24He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

 

[WarEagle]

No what it comdems is conjuration of Spirits.

...as well as all contact with the dead.



Deuteronomy 18:11
or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

That is exactly what an atheist would say.

Then it looks like the atheist is smarter than the Roman Catholic.

A Christian would know that the Saints have eternal life through Christ.

Of course they do. However, they're still physically dead, still gone from this world into the next.

That makes them dead to us.

Maybe if you were more Charitable in your discussion.

It's always the other guy, isn't it. Never able to take responsibility for your own actions, are you?

29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Yeah, I just said that.

Stating that prayers to the Saints which is the work of the Holy Spirit are really demons maquerading as Saints. Is blaspheming against the work of the Holy Spirit and God.

Where does the Bible say that violating God's command not to have contact with the dead is an act of the Holy Spirit?

May God have mercy on you.

And may you repent and get right with God.

Stating that those that have gained eternal live and are alive in Christ are dead does imply that God is dead.

OK. Let me try this again: how does the fact that human beings die mean that God is dead?