Hocus Pocus ????

[Gary51]

Except we know that the pope is fallible in such matters.

Praying to a lump of stone shows how fallible he is.

 

[BigNorsk]

"Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.

Pope Benedict XVI prays to a statue of Madonna of Lourdes in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican

Pilgrims to the shrine in south-west France will receive "plenary indulgences" from the Pontiff, which the Church says reduce the time spent being "washed" of sin after death. The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.

The Church teaches that people who do not go directly to heaven must spend time in purgatory, where they can be purified of residual sin.

It is the latest initiative to get more pilgrims to the shrine, famous for the reported healing properties of its water. In August the Vatican opened an airline service offering pilgrims direct flights from Rome to Lourdes.

For those who cannot make the journey to France, the Pope will also grant indulgences to Catholics who pray at places of worship dedicated to the Madonna of Lourdes from Feb 2 to Feb 11. Indulgences may also be granted under special circumstances to people too sick to visit the shrine, the Vatican said.

The offer comes as the shrine prepares to commemorate the 150th anniversary of when the Madonna was said to have appeared to a peasant girl in 1858.

The Pope is expected to visit next year, possibly in September or October."

How can the Pope offer relief from purgatory if you travel to Lourdes over the next year? How is this possible?

The pope claims to control a grace bank in which the extra grace of the saints is available to him to give to whomever he may please to give it too.

Strange isn't it that the pope would not in this season of Christmas give grace to the poor and crippled and so on freely through his love? But instead require a pilgramage, one which will result in many people traveling to Rome, flying on his airline, and buying always buying idols and trinkets to worship.

It is much easier to understand if you realize the entire Vatican system is an early Disneyland. With wonders and marvels to see. Huge catheldrals, wonderful pagentry, and so on. Ad on to it that you get forgiveness through the whole indulgence system, set up to fill the coffers with worldly wealth exchanged for supposedly heavenly wealth. Buy a statue, pay for mass, pray a rosary, kiss the pope's ring, take a pilgramage, worship a saint which your purchased on sale at a booth dispensing them by the dozen.

It's the foundation of Rome. The selling of God's grace.

Another fellow thought long ago the blessings of God must be for sale. He was instructed concerning that matter by the apostle Peter. It would be wonderful if the church that claims to have the chair of Peter would listen to his instruction:
Act 8:18-23 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit39 was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, offered them money, (19) saying, "Give me this power40 too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit." (20) But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you,41 because you thought you could acquire42 God's gift with money! (21) You have no share or part43 in this matter44 because your heart is not right before God! (22) Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord45 that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart.46 (23) For I see that you are bitterly envious47 and in bondage to sin."


Marv

 

[WarEagle]

You've got it backwards. God communicates his wishes through the Pope.

So, God wishes to sit by and do nothing about pedophile priests?

God communicates His wishes through His word, not through the pope or any other man. The best any man can do is to proclaim what God's word says.

 

[Gary51]

LionroarO, BigNorsk and WarEagle have made some excellent points. Would you like to comment, as I am very interested in your answers.

 

[tulc]

Praying to a lump of stone shows how fallible he is.

...which, if he was praying to a lump of stone, would be a good point.
tulc(but you and I both know that's not what he's doing)

 

[HisKid1973]

I think we know who he is praying too, we're just not sure she has the attributes of God and can hear spoken or unspoken prayer..

 

[Dannager]

So, God wishes to sit by and do nothing about pedophile priests?

No. But it's not something that God is interested in having the Pope communicate, clearly.

I'd like to take a moment to examine how you came up with this post. It's almost as if you said to yourself "Oh, look, a thread about the Catholic church! I bet I can get a dig in towards their priesthood!" Then you found something to challenge, and through your attack in. You clearly didn't think about it all that much, since it doesn't actually fit that well. I mean, chances are pretty good that the Pope saying "Don't molest kids, stupid priests!" wouldn't exactly put a stop to the problem.

If you want to pointlessly rag on the Catholic church, WarEagle. There are plenty of places to do that. Trolling, however, is really not appreciated.

 

[BrightCandle]

You've got it backwards. God communicates his wishes through the Pope.

God tell us in the Bible, to confess our sins to Jesus, and we will experience forgiveness of sin. There is no mention of Mary granting forgiveness of sins in the Bible, therefore, we can only conclude that the Devil is behind the latest indulgence given by the Pope.

 

[BrightCandle]

Throughout the history of the Roman Catholic Church she has had some good Popes and some bad ones. I believe that Pope Benedict XVI is undoing very much of the outstanding work done by his recent predecessors and he is a horrible embarrassment to the portion of the Roman Catholic Church who has a solid knowledge of the Bible and the progress that was made by the reforms of the Second Vatican Council . I believe that Pope Benedict XVI will go down in history as one of the very worst Popes, certainly one of the worst in modern times.

The actions of the current Pope reveal the course that he has chosen to bring about growth in the Roman Catholic Church. Which is losing millions of members to evangelical denominations in almost every country in the world, where it had been in times past very strong. Secular humanism, post modernism, worldly compromise, and the work of evangelical churches have eroded the power base of the RCC. Additionally, the global priest sex scandals have drawn down hundreds of millions of dollars out of the Vatican treasury. In reply, Benedict is taking a hard line approach, and promoting a more fundamental form of Roman Catholicism, by promoting attendance of mass on Sunday, visits to places like Lourdes, the supremacy of the Roman church, etc, etc.

 

[lionroar0]

God tell us in the Bible, to confess our sins to Jesus, and we will experience forgiveness of sin.

Agreed

There is no mention of Mary granting forgiveness of sins in the Bible, therefore, we can only conclude that the Devil is behind the latest indulgence given by the Pope.

Indulgences are not the forgiveness of sins. And the Church does not teach that Mary forgives sins.

But you know this already.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm


WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS NOT

To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.

Don't you think after being refuted so many times in CF you should get off your soapbox?

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

The actions of the current Pope reveal the course that he has chosen to bring about growth in the Roman Catholic Church. Which is losing millions of members to evangelical denominations in almost every country in the world, where it had been in times past very strong. Secular humanism, post modernism, worldly compromise, and the work of evangelical churches have eroded the power base of the RCC. Additionally, the global priest sex scandals have drawn down hundreds of millions of dollars out of the Vatican treasury. In reply, Benedict is taking a hard line approach, and promoting a more fundamental form of Roman Catholicism, by promoting attendance of mass on Sunday, visits to places like Lourdes, the supremacy of the Roman church, etc, etc.

Oh brother. Actually it's the dioceses that paid for settlements and restitutions not the Vatican.

Lots of bread but no meat.

I suppose there are figures to back up the claims of millions of Catholics leaving the church right??

Peace

 

[LJSGM]

just subscribing

 

[DarkLegend28]

Sorry guys. The Pope is not God. He's just as human as you or I. No real power there.

 

[tulc]

I think we know who he is praying too, we're just not sure she has the attributes of God and can hear spoken or unspoken prayer..

He's just asking one Christian to pray for another Christian.
tulc(where's the harm?)

 

[HisKid1973]

He's just asking one Christian to pray for another Christian.
tulc(where's the harm?)

I guess ok if he believes they hear...Makes more sense to go right to the top from the examples we see in the scriptures..

 

[tulc]

I guess ok if he believes they hear...Makes more sense to go right to the top from the examples we see in the scriptures..

Hey I'm with you, I try and go right to the top myself, of course I can always use other Christians praying for me, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of asking dead people for prayer, but then as a friend pointed out "They are more alive now then when they walked among us." that kind of put a different perspective on it for me.
tulc(who only asks people here on Earth to pray for him, but doesn't have a problem with those who ask those in Heaven for prayer also)

 

[Gary51]

Hey I'm with you, I try and go right to the top myself, of course I can always use other Christians praying for me, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of asking dead people for prayer, but then as a friend pointed out "They are more alive now then when they walked among us." that kind of put a different perspective on it for me.
tulc(who only asks people here on Earth to pray for him, but doesn't have a problem with those who ask those in Heaven for prayer also)

How can dead people be more alive than when they walked with us?... Dead is dead.

This must also mean, that you must pray to the dead, and you think they can hear our prayers like God does, and act on them.

Please explain?

 

[HisKid1973]

Hey I'm with you, I try and go right to the top myself, of course I can always use other Christians praying for me, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of asking dead people for prayer, but then as a friend pointed out "They are more alive now then when they walked among us." that kind of put a different perspective on it for me.
tulc(who only asks people here on Earth to pray for him, but doesn't have a problem with those who ask those in Heaven for prayer also)

Hey Bro... I have no doubt that the dead in Christ are alive in the Spirit in Heaven...I guess if I had and example of say Paul talking to Stephen after he was marterd, I would be into it..Guess where me just sticking to the scriptures limits me....Bless ya..Kim

 

[tulc]

How can dead people be more alive than when they walked with us?... Dead is dead.

Except only their bodies died, their souls went to be with God, they no longer see in part and they know even as they are known.

This must also mean, that you must pray to the dead, and you think they can hear our prayers like God does, and act on them.

Please explain?

uhmmm must have missed this part of my post?

tulc(who only asks people here on Earth to pray for him, but doesn't have a problem with those who ask those in Heaven for prayer also) (emph. added)

tulc(who accepts others can believe differently and knows they are still Christians)

 

[DArceri]

"Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.

The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.

It is the latest initiative to get more pilgrims to the shrine, famous for the reported healing properties of its water. In August the Vatican opened an airline service offering pilgrims direct flights from Rome to Lourdes.

The offer comes as the shrine prepares to commemorate the 150th anniversary of when the Madonna was said to have appeared to a peasant girl in 1858.