Hitler

[Chris†opher Paul]

Neo posted:

"The Vatican's support of Hitler is also a matter of historical record. The Vatican signed a treaty with Nazi Germany on July 20, 1933. Hitler repeatedly referred to himself as a Christian both in speeches and in his writings, and was never excommunicated by the church. Every Nazi soldier was required to wear a belt buckle with the inscription "Gott mit uns," meaning God is with us.
There were numerous Nazi followers in the United States as well. Two of the most rabid anti-semites from this period were Church pastors, the Rev. Gerald L.K. Smith (1898-1976) and Father Charles Coughlin (1891-1979), who said "Germany's war is a battle for Christianity."

What up with this?  All lies, or part lies, or what?

 

[Auntie]

Hitler was not Christian, regardless of whatever he claimed, or what anyone else claimed.

Edit: Souljah, where did Neo get the info you quoted?

 

[ZiSunka]

Is Neo a neo-nazi, by any chance? These things are all junk that revisionists and new-nazis are pushing, to incite anger against catholics and Christians, to win over new converts to nazism and to make themselves feel like they are smart and have special, hidden knowledge.

As I recall, the catholic church also has taken a beating about baptizing jewish kids in order to save them from the death camps. Either the church was with the nazis or against them, but not both. Why would they side up with the very people they worked against? Do you have any idea how many priests and pastors were executed for continuing to preach the gospel after the edict forbidding the preaching of the gospel? Ask Bonhoeffer, one of their last victims!

And just because there were two churchmen who supported nazism, doesn't mean that the nazis were Christian. Do any of the actions of Hilter and his gang seem like they were followers of Jesus??!!

 

[Wolseley]

I'm wondering where Neo got this from.

Actually, I wrote my Bachelor's thesis on this topic, so I happen to have done extensive research into it. Let's take them one by one:

"The Vatican's support of Hitler is also a matter of historical record. The Vatican signed a treaty with Nazi Germany on July 20, 1933.

Inaccurate. The Vatican signed a concordat with Germany; what this means is, they signed an agreement with the existing government to ensure that the rights of Catholics inside Germany would not be violated. The Vatican does not sign concordats with its friends. (It has never, for example, signed a concordat with the United States, since there has never been any need for one---the rights of Catholics in the US have never been violated by the government in a concentrated way.) The concordat was an effort to safeguard religious liberty for Catholics in Germany, which the Vatican feared would be violated under the Nazis. They were; Hitler ignored the stipulations under the concordat as soon as the war started. I must reiterate that the Vatican only signs concordats with governments that are actively hostile to the Church; how this equates with "support" is beyond me. Apparently whoever wrote this didn't have much idea of what he was talking about.

Hitler repeatedly referred to himself as a Christian both in speeches and in his writings

And I can give you quote after quote from Hitler's dinner conversations that he only said such things for political expediency; I can likewise give you quote after quote that he planned on destroying Christianity completely inside Germany, and that his next target after he disposed of the Jews was the Catholic Church. Selectively quoting Hitler's statements of his alleged Christianity, divorced form the context of his other statements and his actions, does not equate with truth.

and was never excommunicated by the church.

Incorrect. Hitler was automatically excommunicated by virtue of the things he did---he never went to Mass, he denegrated the Church, he persecuted the clergy, he was involved in mass murder, you name it. These things brought upon him a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication; only an excommunication that is issued by decree of the Vatican (ferendae sententiae) has to be in writing. Simply because an excommunication was not officially issued in writing does not mean it didn't exist. Canon law states that an excommunication can take place "by the very commission of the offense". A modern example would be a woman who willingly procures an abortion; by that very action, she is automatically excommunicated.

Every Nazi soldier was required to wear a belt buckle with the inscription "Gott mit uns," meaning God is with us.

Misleading. The motto Gott Mit Uns was a standard motto for the German Army clear back to Frederick the Great; it was found on military belt buckles long before the Nazis. Further, during the Nazi era, that motto was only on belt buckles belonging to the Wehrmacht, or the German Army, whose members did not necessarily have to be Nazis. The real die-hard members of the Nazi Party usually were members of the Schutzstaffel, or SS; their belt buckles bore the motto Meine Ehre heisst Treue, or "My honor is my truth".

There were numerous Nazi followers in the United States as well. Two of the most rabid anti-semites from this period were Church pastors, the Rev. Gerald L.K. Smith (1898-1976) and Father Charles Coughlin (1891-1979), who said "Germany's war is a battle for Christianity."

Yes, such statements were made. So what? Simply because the odd individual here and there had Nazi sentiments doesn't mean the entire country did. This last statement is a red herring---it means nothing insofar as Hitler's alleged Christianity goes; but because the speakers were clergymen, the author inserted this to try to give his argument weight. It doesn't stand up under examination.

What up with this? All lies, or part lies, or what?

Oh, it's a combination of half-truths, mistruths, twistings, prefabrications, and misinterpretations; and although it has no statistics, it does have the other two mentioned in the famous quote: lies, and damned lies.

 

[pax]

Good post Wolsely!

 

[ZiSunka]

Yeah Wolseley!!!

Thank you so much for setting all this straight!!

I knew it couldn't be true, just from the things I knew of, but your categorical exposition puts it to rest once and for all!

 

[Tinker Grey]

At the Straight Dope, they had a column dedicated to this question: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

The following is a quote

When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, Nazism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

{Emphasis Added}

I really like the line: "he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

lambslove said:
As I recall, the catholic church also has taken a beating about baptizing jewish kids in order to save them from the death camps.

Converted Jews were still sent to the death camps. For example, Eddith Stein was deported from the Netherlands despite being a nun.

(I can't remember the name she took on as a nun. If Wosley or someone else could help with that, it would be greatly appreciated. She was recently cannonized under that name, if that helps.)

 

[Wolseley]

Edith Stein's religious name was Sister Teresa Benedicta of the Cross. She was a member of the Order of Discalced Carmelites, and she died in the gas chambers of the Auschwitz Konzentrationslager on August 9, 1942.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Wolseley is the man! Thanks for being great evidence that scholastic endeavor is not Satan's plan for taking over the Church.

 

[ZooMom]

Don't forget St. Max Kolbe, a Catholic priest, who voluntarily took the place of one of ten Jewish men slated for 'extermination' in one of the death camps, so that the young husband and father might have a chance to return to his family.

Everytime I hear about this, about the Church being 'in bed' with the Nazis, it makes me sick. Anyone who believes such a thing without bothering to research and verify it, and then posts it as if it were truth, should be ashamed.

Thanks from me too, Wols. What would we ever do without you.

 

[VOW]

To Zoo:

Maximilian Kobe's story is one of incredible inspiration. His supreme unselfishness to take on such suffering only humbles me to the point of speechlessness.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Polycarp]

-

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by lambslove
Is Neo a neo-nazi, by any chance? These things are all junk that revisionists and new-nazis are pushing, to incite anger against catholics and Christians, to win over new converts to nazism and to make themselves feel like they are smart and have special, hidden knowledge.

I never realized that implication in his username before, but it's definitely a possibility.

For some reason, I kept on thinking "Matrix". Go figure...

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Wolsley-

Thanks so much brother. You are a great teacher. God Bless you.

The best lies are two part truth, one part lie...an atheist once told me that.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Correction, it wasn't Neo that posted that, I mixed him up with one of the other atheists, apparently.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams


Converted Jews were still sent to the death camps. For example, Eddith Stein was deported from the Netherlands despite being a nun.

(I can't remember the name she took on as a nun. If Wosley or someone else could help with that, it would be greatly appreciated. She was recently cannonized under that name, if that helps.)

Eventually that was true, but at first, if a person could provide a baptismal certificate, it could delay their deportation long enough for them to escape to another country or find a place to hide.  Eventually, even changing their jewish names to Christian names didn't help, and all people with "jewish" names were deported, whether or not they were really jews.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Edith Stein's religious name was Sister Teresa Benedicta of the Cross. She was a member of the Order of Discalced Carmelites, and she died in the gas chambers of the Auschwitz Konzentrationslager on August 9, 1942.

Thank's Wosely.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Originally posted by lambslove


Eventually that was true, but at first, if a person could provide a baptismal certificate, it could delay their deportation long enough for them to escape to another country or find a place to hide.  Eventually, even changing their jewish names to Christian names didn't help, and all people with "jewish" names were deported, whether or not they were really jews.

The safety of the converted Jews was a bone the Nazis tried to throw to the Catholic Church to buy its silence. When the Church spoke against the Nazis' actions, the Nazis revoked the exception.