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In response to JM, he seems to base alot on the scholarship of leslie brubar ( I think that's her name) who primarily views veneration of icons as a reaction towards iconoclast policy.
No images are mentioned for use in worship, acts of piety or prayer.
Proponent of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism like to claim that Protestants use a biblical canon that was decided upon by a church council and before that council the canon was undetermined. For a good example of this argument please see my transcription of a podcast titled Orthodixie here. This same argument has been repeated on CF many times. Simply apply the same argument to your own, for the use of images/icons. Before the so-called "Triumph of Orthodoxy" the use of images was undecided until a church council determined it.
so then why did God tell Moses to put the cherubim on the Tabernacle? what was their purpose?
not really, the Pantocrator of Sinai is in St Catherine's Monastery and that dates to the 6th, and the Image-Not-Made-by-Human-Hands and St Luke's all date to the first. there were also mosaics in Churches in the 4th century.
I understand what the EO purpose is and still have my own icons as art. But how did they become used for worship? I already outlined that.I think something JM is missing is an understanding that icons are essentially a pictorial dictionary from a time when the majority of the population was illiterate (they became increasingly popular around the third century A.D.). If you understand the rich symbolic history (not just from the "written" -- drawn/painted -- symbols that accompany Christ, the Theotokos, a Saint or other revered individual, but also of the colors and patterns used), you can glean a great deal of information from the Saint to nascent theology.
In response to JM, he seems to base alot on the scholarship of leslie brubar...
Yes Brubaker. Are you familiar with her works?
In the OP Calvin knocked St John of Damascus.
I understand what the EO purpose is and still have my own icons as art. But how did they become used for worship? I already outlined that.
It was defined in the passages you kind of alluded to but didn't exegete.
Great. I also pointed out the New Testament example, before the use of images were introduced, and we find nothing mentioned.
Actually, I was being facetious about the off-topic part (I'm a bugger, I know). In fact, it is on topic. Its in response to your original post, where you wrote:That subject is off topic as you have admitted. Let's stay focused on icons for now and leave the other topics to different threads.
Besides, it seems like a weak attempt to draw away from the validity of what I posted so far.
Your whole outlook seems to be one of "Sola Scriptura". I was responding to that.. Make no bones about it, I am unable to find any scriptural reason for the use of images
This debate seemed bound to happen as the revelation of God in scripture came into contact . . .
Ultimately it wasn’t the Bible that settled the issue for the church . . .
The idea that you could reach God through images is foreign to scripture.
True, this is a bad tactic, whether done by an EO like me, or by a "Sola Scriptura" Protestant. My point was to show that, even the Protestant tactic of "proof-texts" can lead us to acknowledge Tradition.You are posting scripture without providing context . . .
Don't blame me for tripping over "Sola Scriptura" and getting skewered. All I did was bring the horns.. . . only leading questions, they are logically "complicated," meaning they are asked in such a manner as to set me upon the horns of a dilemma.
OK, that's my fault. I should have been clearer. I did not mean to create an "either/or" between the Bible and Tradition. I only wished to show that the Bible itself forbids "Sola Scriptura", by pointing beyond itself to Tradition.It's an either/or fallacy. A debaters trick. Sophistry.
But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.
The Regulative principle of worship in Christian theology teaches that the public worship of God should include those and only those elements that are instituted, commanded, or appointed by command or example in the Bible.
yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.
The issue at hand is the practice of looking into a painting of God or His saints and pretending to be "looking through a window to heaven." The concept is completely foreign to the Old and New Testament. The heart of the issue is looking at history and scripture, not layers of tradition accepted only by your church, to discover what the Apostle taught and believed.
Guess why it's impossible...because the Bible doesn't teach it. The recorded words of the Apostles do not instruct us to paint images of Christ for worship. It's that simple and I agree, those who profess to believe in the Bible alone for doctrine and create images for worship are inconsistent at best, hypocritical at worst.
That is your party's line. Essentially, the Christian church happened and was serverly prosceuted by the State. Once the State involved itself in the church many areas of theology were bought and sold. The issue over Icons being one of them.
I was speaking directly to Orthodox mystical experience and the mystical experience found in Buddhism. Plenty of studies online about it.
Given these implications that come with Iconoclasm, it is simply natural for 2nd Nicaea to reject and condemn it. To embrace such is to assume a Gnostic and Docetist outlook on matter and the incarnation.Who dares attempt with heathenish art to paint the Mother of God, who is exalted above all heavens and the Saints? It is not permitted to Christians, who have the hope of the resurrection, to imitate the customs of demon-worshippers, and to insult the Saints, who shine in so great glory, by common dead matter.
Hello everyone, new poster here.
I have been observing this debate for a while and I feel like expressing my two cents. Firstly I think that Ommnone got it right by giving the underlying political context regarding Byzantine Iconoclasm. Some scholars have viewed it as a reaction towards the rising tide of Islam at the time which is generally Iconoclastic. JM did not address the context that Ommnone provided.
Secondly, it is true that there isn't really any actual evidence of Icon veneration amongst the Early Christians. In my point of view, the practice of Venerating Icons rose out of the practice of venerating the relics of the Saints. We know the Early Christians do this given the Martyrdom of Polycarp(Lightfoot translation) which I would quote,
Polycarp 13:2
But when the pile was made ready, divesting himself of all his upper garments and loosing his girdle, he endeavored also to take off his shoes, though not in the habit of doing this before, because all the faithful at all times vied eagerly who should soonest touch his flesh. For he had been treated with all honor for his holy life even before his gray hairs came.
Polycarp 17:1
But the jealous and envious Evil One, the adversary of the family of the righteous, having seen the greatness of his martyrdom and his blameless life from the beginning, and how he was crowned with the crown of immortality and had won a reward which none could gainsay, managed that not even his poor body should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this and to touch his holy flesh.
It is from something like this that the practice of venerating Icons came about. I'm not saying that the Early Christians didn't use any form of imagery, they do rather that venerating the Image of the Saint most likely stem from the veneration of relics.
Thirdly, it should be important to note that the endorsement of Iconoclasm lead to heretical implications. For example it leads to Docetism given how they at the time viewed the Eucharist as the only acceptable Icon of Christ. This is so given that the Bread used in the Eucharist is without Form and is not representative of Christ's humanity. By proposing this, the Iconoclasts basically denied the physicality of the Resurrection given the non acceptance of the Bread used as being representative of the Humanity of Christ, just the work of Christ.
Also, given that Christ is Fully Human and assumed the properties of a Human body, it makes sense that this person that is Christ is therefore perceivable by the mind which permits His depiction, allowing Images of Christ to be made and venerated. Such is so as a testament to the Incarnation, the fact that He assumed a Real physical body, the one that Rose from the Dead on the third day. Through this, to deny Iconography is to inevitably endorse some kind of Docetism since it is a rejection of this testament.
Another thing to note is that Byzantine Iconoclasts endorsed some form of Gnosticism given their view of matter which is conveyed in the Seventh Ecumenical Synod in which it declares,
Given these implications that come with Iconoclasm, it is simply natural for 2nd Nicaea to reject and condemn it. To embrace such is to assume a Gnostic and Docetist outlook on matter and the incarnation.
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