Hillsong Church member, 34, dies of Covid after publicly speaking out against vaccine (yahoo.com)

[rturner76]

Re-read the article. Better yet, google the story and read other articles on her death. The only confirmed COVID tests that were done were negative. The only autopsy that was done was requested and paid for by the family and the results contradicted the claims made by the state health care officials.

Those who defend vaccines at all costs also seem to believe in extreme coincidences - that her heart attack just happened to start 20 minutes after receiving her vaccine. It's amazing how many stories there are where problem "just happen" to start right after the vaccine, and the official conclusion, without an autopsy or investigation is "it wasn't the vaccine". Making claims like that without evidence isn't "following the science".

It could definitely be a botched shot if they shot her with an air bubble it would cause an aneurism But that's like literally one in a million.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Thanks for the anecdote. Good to know that anecdotes are useful again in providing health care guidance (or, at the very least, shaming).

Here's an anecdote about a woman dying right after taking the vaccine, but, without an autopsy, the state was able to confirm that the vaccine wasn't the cause of death. The family paid for an autopsy, which contradicted a number of the states findings.

Keyes received a first dose of Pfizer vaccine Jan. 30 and died shortly after at VCU Tappahannock Hospital. A report documenting her case in the federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System said she began having trouble breathing in the parking lot of her vaccination site about 20 minutes after getting the shot. She then began vomiting every 20 to 30 seconds.
...
The state’s investigation, which did not include an autopsy, ruled she died naturally — of complications arising from hypertensive cardiovascular disease and COVID-19, according to the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner. Other significant conditions, it said, were Type 2 diabetes, high cholesterol, obesity and hypoventilation syndrome, a breathing disorder.
...
In March, Jones said the family decided to get a private autopsy because the state did not perform one. At the time, her relatives hoped it would shed more light on what happened to Keyes, a church minister and supervisor for the Middle Peninsula Northern Neck Community Services Board.

“The examiner showed from the autopsy that there was a clot, bilateral pulmonary embolism, that they believe, in their medical opinion, resulted from medical treatment of the COVID vaccine, that led to her pulmonary edema,” she said. “And those were the direct cause of death.”

The private investigation, conducted by Epiarx Diagnostics, also took samples from multiple areas of Keyes’ respiratory tract, not just nasal pharyngeal swabs, Jones said. Those specimens showed negative results for COVID-19, from rapid and molecular PCR tests.
...
The Virginia Department of Health declined to say if, when or how its COVID-19 tests were performed, stating it was protected health information.

A Gloucester woman died after being vaccinated. A state investigation ruled she had COVID-19, but the family disagrees. - The Virginian-Pilot (pilotonline.com)

Did the woman have underlying health problems? Absolutely (as do the vast majority of Covid deaths).

Did the woman begin experiencing symptoms within minutes of receiving her vaccine? Absolutely.

Did the woman die within hours of receiving her vaccine? Absolutely.

Did the state perform an autopsy to identify the cause of death? No.

Was the cause of death related to the vaccine? Definitely not according to state examiners, but a private autopsy contradicted a number of the state's claims, including the state's claim of a positive Covid diagnosis.

Are these types of events from vaccines extremely rare? Absolutely, but what i find unsettling is the consistency in which, without examination, there is an almost immediate determination that it wasn't from the vaccine, despite the death literally occurring right after vaccination.

She had a severe allergic reaction - Anaphylaxis. This can happen from any vaccine, medicine, food, plant life and more. I worked with a woman who had that type of a reaction when she was given a bouquet of mums. Another had a severe reaction to a new juice that she drank. Usually, if addressed right off, the person does fine after getting epinephrine and benadryl.

 

[iluvatar5150]

This makes him 1 of 7,000~ out of 44,000,000 people in the entire country to have died of COVID-19 in the 30-39 age bracket. 0.016% of the 30-39 age bracket has died of COVID-19 in the US.

COVID-19 deaths by age U.S. July 2021 | Statista

Scary headline, though; and well planned, showing those Christians that they will absolutely die if they don't inject.

I like how you pick that one over the 0.016% of people aged 30-39 in the US who have died, which is a 7,000 out of 44,000,000.

5x the number of flu deaths sounds really bad until you put it into context and percentages.

I'll pretend to be very scared for you if it makes you feel better. I mean, when I had it I only lost taste and smell for like a week and that's it, but I'll pretend that I'll surely die.

That would make covid the #2 leading cause of death for that age cohort. (or roughly tied for second; differences in age brackets make a perfect comparison a bit fuzzy)

Most Common Causes of Death in The US

 

[whatbogsends]

She had a severe allergic reaction - Anaphylaxis. This can happen from any vaccine, medicine, food, plant life and more. I worked with a woman who had that type of a reaction when she was given a bouquet of mums. Another had a severe reaction to a new juice that she drank. Usually, if addressed right off, the person does fine after getting epinephrine and benadryl.

Yet the official counting of this death per the state of Virginia and thereby the CDC is that the vaccine played no role in her death.

It is because of incidents like this that i don't trust the CDCs presentation of vaccine safety. Not because someone has a side effect from the vaccine (in this case, which resulted in death), but in their assessment of these incidents and failure to include them in the data by which they assure us the vaccine is safe.

This is not a unique incident. There are numerous incident in which there was a harmful effect from the vaccine, but, invariably, the assessment and messaging are the same "the person died of natural causes", "no relationship has been established with the vaccine", and "any side effects from the vaccine are extremely rare and everyone should get vaccinated".

I have no ability to assess how common these incidents are, because what is lacking is data. The data is not being presented or even available. What i do see are anecdotal instances in which a death immediately followed vaccination followed by the immediate assurance that the vaccine played no part in the death, even in scenarios with people with no pre-existing conditions. My assessment remains that these incidents are extremely rare, but the lack of transparency leads me to not trust those assess the data and present their summaries (i.e. the CDC).

 

[FreeinChrist]

Yet the official counting of this death per the state of Virginia and thereby the CDC is that the vaccine played no role in her death.

It is because of incidents like this that i don't trust the CDCs presentation of vaccine safety. Not because someone has a side effect from the vaccine (in this case, which resulted in death), but in their assessment of these incidents and failure to include them in the data by which they assure us the vaccine is safe.

This is not a unique incident. There are numerous incident in which there was a harmful effect from the vaccine, but, invariably, the assessment and messaging are the same "the person died of natural causes", "no relationship has been established with the vaccine", and "any side effects from the vaccine are extremely rare and everyone should get vaccinated".

I have no ability to assess how common these incidents are, because what is lacking is data. The data is not being presented or even available. What i do see are anecdotal instances in which a death immediately followed vaccination followed by the immediate assurance that the vaccine played no part in the death, even in scenarios with people with no pre-existing conditions. My assessment remains that these incidents are extremely rare, but the lack of transparency leads me to not trust those assess the data and present their summaries (i.e. the CDC).

Where is the official record of her death?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Okay, I see where someone is saying it was 'flash pulmonary edema" which something associated with heart failure and renal stenosis.

It would be hard to say if it was caused by the vaccine or incidentally happened as she had to have underlying conditions. It is something that happens when no covid vaccine is given at all.

See Sympathetic crashing acute pulmonary edema - PubMed

... is relatively common in the emergency department (ED) and has better outcomes when managed appropriately. The patients have an abrupt redistribution of fluid in the lungs, and when treated promptly and effectively, these patients will rapidly recover......​

Looks like they treated as if an allergic reaction. She would have needed diuretics.

But the family could have paid for an autopsy.

 

[whatbogsends]

Okay, I see where someone is saying it was 'flash pulmonary edema" which something associated with heart failure and renal stenosis.

It would be hard to say if it was caused by the vaccine or incidentally happened as she had to have underlying conditions. It is something that happens when no covid vaccine is given at all.

See Sympathetic crashing acute pulmonary edema - PubMed

... is relatively common in the emergency department (ED) and has better outcomes when managed appropriately. The patients have an abrupt redistribution of fluid in the lungs, and when treated promptly and effectively, these patients will rapidly recover......​

Looks like they treated as if an allergic reaction. She would have needed diuretics.

But the family could have paid for an autopsy.

As i've said multiple times before, and as is mentioned in the original article, the family did pay for an autopsy.

In March, Jones said the family decided to get a private autopsy because the state did not perform one. At the time, her relatives hoped it would shed more light on what happened to Keyes, a church minister and supervisor for the Middle Peninsula Northern Neck Community Services Board.

“The examiner showed from the autopsy that there was a clot, bilateral pulmonary embolism, that they believe, in their medical opinion, resulted from medical treatment of the COVID vaccine, that led to her pulmonary edema,” she said. “And those were the direct cause of death.”

The private investigation, conducted by Epiarx Diagnostics, also took samples from multiple areas of Keyes’ respiratory tract, not just nasal pharyngeal swabs, Jones said. Those specimens showed negative results for COVID-19, from rapid and molecular PCR tests.

The only one's performing a diagnosis without an autopsy was the state:

The state’s investigation, which did not include an autopsy, ruled she died naturally — of complications arising from hypertensive cardiovascular disease and COVID-19, according to the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Has there been a connection made between blood clots in the lungs and the vaccine anywhere else?

 

[Tanj]

It could definitely be a botched shot if they shot her with an air bubble it would cause an aneurism But that's like literally one in a million.

No, it wouldn't.

Volume of Air in a Lethal Venous Air Embolism | Anesthesiology | American Society of Anesthesiologists

You need 200-300ml of air for an air embolism. A vaccine syringe fully loaded holds 3 ml.

 

[cow451]

No, it wouldn't.

Volume of Air in a Lethal Venous Air Embolism | Anesthesiology | American Society of Anesthesiologists

You need 200-300ml of air for an air embolism. A vaccine syringe fully loaded holds 3 ml.

Thank you. I didn’t have the energy to address that myth.

 

[rturner76]

So what it wa

No, it wouldn't.

Volume of Air in a Lethal Venous Air Embolism | Anesthesiology | American Society of Anesthesiologists

You need 200-300ml of air for an air embolism. A vaccine syringe fully loaded holds 3 ml.

s a poison vaccine? Are saying vaccines are often lethal?

 

[Tanj]

So what it wa

s a poison vaccine? Are saying vaccines are often lethal?

What?

Mate, seriously, all I was saying is that it wasn't an air embolism. That's the totality of my post.

 

[whatbogsends]

Where is the official record of her death?

I don't have "the official record of her death". There are news reports, from multiple news outlets, all which indicate the states official assessment of their death, and statements from the CDC indicating that they only count it as a vaccine death if the public official declares it.

All reports indicate that the officials that made the assessment of her death didn't perform an autopsy, and the family requested and paid for an autopsy, and the results of that autopsy contradicted the official assessment by state officials.

Where's the "official record of death" for the guy church member who died from Covid? Why is it that news reports from reputable news outlets ( The Virginian-Pilot - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)) suddenly get the third degree when there's any story which breaks from the official narrative in any way, while news reports of Covid deaths or death rates are treated as unimpeachable fact?

 

[KCfromNC]

The stories are showing why the data is untrustworthy

That's not how statistics work.

 

[whatbogsends]

That's not how statistics work.

The stories show data points which are being reported incorrectly. Statistics are only as good as the underlying data. It's exactly how it works.

 

[pitabread]

The stories show data points which are being reported incorrectly. Statistics are only as good as the underlying data. It's exactly how it works.

All statistics have a margin of error. This doesn't necessarily invalidate the statistics in question.

 

[dzheremi]

The stories show data points which are being reported incorrectly. Statistics are only as good as the underlying data. It's exactly how it works.

No. For sure, every data point has some story behind it (these are individual people, after all), but that doesn't mean anecdotes are statistically significant, even if you manage to collect a lot of them.

Think about it logically: if you collected several hundred of such anecdotes, what would they mean when stacked up against the 49.2% of the entire US population that have been fully vaccinated as of this morning?

In fact, let's up the numbers. Say you had 10,000 such anecdotes. Well 10,000 out of a population of 163,312,474 (as of this morning, that's the raw number available at the previous link) is 0.006123231%, which is what...some six thousandths of a percent? This is a significant number in this context because 10,000 is almost double the total number of breakthrough Covid cases reported to the CDC (5,914) from 49 states as of July 19th (the most recent data I could find; no doubt that number will rise as the delta variant and others continue to spread).

By contrast to the above percentage, the FDA allows spinach sold in the USA to contain as much as 0.01% of its total weight in aphids and other tiny bugs. So I would really dispute what a percentage in the thousandths is supposed to mean, statistically-speaking.

 

[whatbogsends]

All statistics have a margin of error. This doesn't necessarily invalidate the statistics in question.

Agreed. I didn't say the statistics were invalid, only that collection of data practices should be taken into consideration when evaluating the statistics.

 

[whatbogsends]

No. For sure, every data point has some story behind it (these are individual people, after all), but that doesn't mean anecdotes are statistically significant, even if you manage to collect a lot of them.

Think about it logically: if you collected several hundred of such anecdotes, what would they mean when stacked up against the 49.2% of the entire US population that have been fully vaccinated as of this morning?

In fact, let's up the numbers. Say you had 10,000 such anecdotes. Well 10,000 out of a population of 163,312,474 (as of this morning, that's the raw number available at the previous link) is 0.006123231%, which is what...some six thousandths of a percent? This is a significant number in this context because 10,000 is almost double the total number of breakthrough Covid cases reported to the CDC (5,914) from 49 states as of July 19th (the most recent data I could find; no doubt that number will rise as the delta variant and others continue to spread).

By contrast to the above percentage, the FDA allows spinach sold in the USA to contain as much as 0.01% of its total weight in aphids and other tiny bugs. So I would really dispute what a percentage in the thousandths is supposed to mean, statistically-speaking.

Say i had 10,000 anecdotes (i.e. deaths related to/caused by the vaccine) - i don't, and obviously i would need to quit my job to compile and review even a fraction of those cases, and would need more resources than i have.

Are you seriously suggesting that there's no material difference between "10,000 killed by the vaccine" and "no reported deaths from the vaccine"? While i agree that the percentage would be very small, but marginalizing 10,000 deaths (i'm not saying there are 10,00 deaths) seems to contravene the general message that vaccine proponents are pushing.

The problem i have is the consistent commonality of the anecdotes in which the deaths are dismissed as not relating to the vaccine without any serious investigation done, often in direct opposition to the claims of the families involved.

 

[dzheremi]

Say i had 10,000 anecdotes (i.e. deaths related to/caused by the vaccine) - i don't, and obviously i would need to quit my job to compile and review even a fraction of those cases, and would need more resources than i have.

Are you seriously suggesting that there's no material difference between "10,000 killed by the vaccine" and "no reported deaths from the vaccine"? While i agree that the percentage would be very small, but marginalizing 10,000 deaths (i'm not saying there are 10,00 deaths) seems to contravene the general message that vaccine proponents are pushing.

The problem i have is the consistent commonality of the anecdotes in which the deaths are dismissed as not relating to the vaccine without any serious investigation done, often in direct opposition to the claims of the families involved.

I'm not minimalizing anything. I'm putting things in proper perspective because the worldview that says "look at this case, and this other case, and this third case!" over "look at the overall picture" is actively prolonging and worsening the pandemic by contributing to vaccine hesitancy.