Fineous_Reese said:
europe's tried to follow the Kyoto agreement as well and are beginning to realize why the US opted out. it's impossible to achieve without going bankrupt and so they've missed their goals and increased levels in some areas.
Sources please. Or is this hearsay like socialism prodcing more unemployment. Or fair trade ruining business? Hearsay with no basis in truth. Whenever I hear the kyoto agreement mentioned here, it is never mentioned with any regret. I do sometimes hear people being more and more angry about the USA keeping up their position as the world´s single worst polluter, refusing to change because of economical reasons. Humbug I say! You can get rich while being environmentally conscious. Every year each you produce 20 tons CO2 per capita, you account for 24% of the world´s total CO2 emission, and you only have 4.6% of the world´s population. Look at
this graph. As far as emissions form fossile fuels you account for over twice as much as number two on the list; China. China is, as discussed on another thread, a coal based country, coal is where they get much or most of their electricity. According to Wikipedia, China gets 80.2% of their electricity from fossile fuels, mostly coal. As far as Carbondioxide, you are THE worst nation. Here´s
another source.
What´s more, one of the large reasons the USA is so disliked is that the USA
DID sign the Kyoto agreement, but never ratified it.
Many abroad have problems seeing this as anything other than deceit and lies. As is the perception on US actions in many other things. The US failure to retify the agreement has been really damaging to USA´s popularity abroad, and has damaged political relaions worldwide. So, is your comfortable ride to work in your SUV worth alienating the USA, and removing a lot of nature for your grandchildren to explore and enjoy?
meanwhile, back at the pump, socialists are still wanting to steal from the rich to give 'dignity' to the poor while still not understanding what truly gives dignity.
Man, you Americans have a weird philosophy. How come tax is theft?
Isn´t it worse theft to ruin the mother earth for our children? Is it not worse to let only the rich elite have a chance at getting somewhere in life? The USA claims to be about equality, but apparentely "some are more equal than others" to quote Orson Welles. Tax is not theft. Nor is taxation of gas theft.
See, if you decide to smash a store window, or destroy someone´s property, you have to replace what you broke. Or you need to pay to have it fixed. Right? We can all agree to that. If I smash up your car, I need to get you a new one or fix the one I messed up.
How come you can destroy someone´s property, and are legally bound to repair or replace it, but when you contribute to collective damaging of the entire world, you call it theft if the government asks for compensation? You choose to use a gasoline driven car. You choose to pollute, by your own philosophy should you not be bound to compensate for the damages you cause?
And what are those damages? Global warming, threatening of several species of frogs, fish, plants and animals. Increment in hospital bills for people who get asthma as a direct result of the pollution you cause. Who should pay for all this? Who should stand responsible for the environment? Who should be responsible for the health problems? The people who pollute should be responsible. Each and every one should be, and a sum needs to be calculated and driven in through taxation of the substance used. Thus; If you drive a diesel car, the tax would be less than a gasoline car. If you drive a hydrogen car, you would pay even less or none at all (wheels still whirl up asphalt though). If you ride a bike, it should be free. If you ride collectively the fee for the bus (should it be gasoline driven) should be shared on the tickets.
Same thing applies to tobacco or alcohol. Try to calculate roughly what use of the substance costs society, and apply a taxation to compensate for the loss in work hours, in healthcare, accidents, deaths and the costs thereof and so on.
That would be freedom, wouldn´t it? You´d be free to do whatever you want, but you would have to face the consequences. If you wanted to drive a coal powered vehicle, feel free. But pay up!
As a capitalist I am sure you understand this, and I am sure you understand the need, or there won´t be much of an earth to be a capitalist on in a few centuries.
dignity has naught to do with how much money you have in fact correlations can be drawn on how undignified folks can get when they have lots of money.
You´re the one who´s talking dignity. Do the poor not have a right to a healthy life to the exact same extent as the rich? Do not the unfortunate have the same right to a healthy life and dignified retirement? They contribute a lot to society, often more than the rich elite. But they are given salaries so low they cannot afford healthcare. Should a person be damned just because he cannot make enough money to pay for healthcare? If you were not very well gifted mentally, but very well gifted physically in terms of that you are good with you hands, a skilled carpenter or roadworker for instance. You work hard, and love your job. You make things the world around you needs to revolve - but because you are not gifted enough to start a well working business, you do not have a right to good healthcare, and are often treated with contempt many places.
Wherease if you are a stocks trader. You don´t really contribute a single thing to society. You buy and sell people´s jobs for a living, and you get rich tossing people about, sometimes causing businesses to need to restructurize and fire employees. You´re scrupulous and heartless, but you have more rights and benefits than the person in example A. How is this fair? Tell me, why should not person B at the very least contribute and share a minute part of his wealth to ensure that the root of society is OK. This is all quite ridiculous, it is like a tree where you put up a plastic sheet underneath the leaves, saying "The tree gets water, let the leaves at the top do the drinking and forget the root we do not see"
The leaves on a tree and the rich in society get their benefits regardless of what happens. They are rich and bask in the benefits of their money. The poor work hard. Often harder than the rich, and their reward is what? Nought. A factory worker cannot work his way up very easilly. A man can be excellent at his trade, without ever becoming rich. Does the money really have that much to say? I really think that while the rich should be allowed to be rich and have what benefits come with a large amount of money without stigmatization for their posessions. But, I do not believe that things like healthcare, legal protection and education should be part of these benefits. Those should be universally available, regardless of wealth. To support that, taxation is needed. BUT, it does provide you with a system which will ensure the future of your nation by ensuring the health of your workforce being good. And also ensuring that no matter what social layer a person is born into he/she has a great chance of becoming all he/she can become. We threw away the elitist society when we threw out nobility. Now, everyone has the same rights and opportunities.
get your laws off my wallet
Oh please do keep your wallet. And your ideas of ethics and morality far away from the legal system.
I want a society where the person is more important than the money he makes. I want a society of equals. A society where all are considered equal despite their social positions. I want a society where a gardener with a heart condition can have the same treatment as a lawyer with the same condition. I want a society where people contribute and work together to form a better tomorrow for everyone, not just themselves. I want a society firmly grounded in Christian faith, and Christian morals. I want a society where people share and help eachother out for the better of everyone. If you want to call that socialism go ahead. If you want to call that evil or theft based, go ahead. But don´t force your separatist system of unequality and favoritism on those of us who want to give a littlebit of what we make to ensure that others may get the same chances of excelling as we have. So keep your class divide, but please do something about that pollution. It´s like being in an elevator with a smoker who does not want to put out his cigarette and claims I am a totalitarian jerk for wanting to breathe free.
