Hi - nice atheist here

[grahamsnumber]

Why do you believe Jesus never existed? Don't you know that His existence has been proven by historians worldwide? Even those who didn't believe he is the Messiah wrote about Him. The calendar used worldwide is based on the birth of Jesus. Do you think it is based on a fictional character?

I used to assume that Jesus existed. I heard about the mythicist position, and thought it was ridiculous. I started looking into the subject, and found that the scholarship was really lacking any real evidence outside the Bible itself. I came across the works of Richard Carrier (a scholar in ancient history and the origins of Christianity), Robert Price, and David Fitzgerald, and became fascinated. The basic idea is not that Jesus was made up out of whole cloth all at once. Rather, the mythicists say that Jesus was originally worshipped as a celestial being, and was later made into a real person between the time of Paul and the time of the writing of the Gospels. The subject is a long and interesting one, and will be a fun discussion.

 

[grahamsnumber]

Believing Jesus never walked the earth around the year zero is a quite preposterous position.
But i believed that too for a while, after being convinced by the Zeitgeist movie.
Little did i know that it's a pack of lies and nonsense coming from the theosophical society.

...

Question:
Do you seriously believe ALL Christians are so naive to blindly believe some concocted story from an old religious institution in the year 2017?

(edit) Hmmm... that's wat i believed too at the time..
In fact, there are many examples of people being so naive to believe people are so naive...
...and then there are people who are so naive to believe various nonsensical things...
So i guess you can ignore the question....

I should point out that I completely agree with you on Zeitgeist. Responsible mythicists regard it as a complete load of garbage that is factually wrong in many, many, ways, and is filled with embarrassingly bad arguments. A great deal of mythicist stuff on the Internet is awful and consists of statements that are egregiously wrong, written by non-historians with crazy theories. For example, things like the Romans completely inventing the whole story of Jesus to control the Jews are trivial to disprove, and unfortunately make all mythicists look nuts (I was of that opinion myself before coming across Carrier).

Regarding Christians being naive: I don't think that one has to be naive to believe something that is not true, particularly something so complex, old, and engrained in our culture and Christianity. There are many religions out there, and you probably agree with me that at least some of them are false. But I would never say that, for example, the 1.2 billion Hindus are "naive". Similarly, I don't think that the Christian story was "concocted", but rather that it evolved over a long period of time.

 

[Occams Barber]

Hi grahamsnumber

My name is Occam’s Barber and I am the totally unofficial and absolutely unauthorised meeter and greeter for new atheist members of the Forum .

Firstly – Welcome to CF, The natives are friendly. Within CF you will be restricted to certain areas and will be expected to refrain from criticism of the teachings of various denominations. You are a guest. Please leave the toilet seat down.

For those areas you cannot enter you will be able to look through the bars and watch the Golden Ones at play. Please do not poke the occupants or attempt to feed them.

In the event you run into a Christian while wandering the deep, dank, corridors of CF there is an accepted protocol. With eyes downcast, bend forward in a small bow acknowledging the superior status of your Christian interlocutor. Extend your right hand, palm down. When you feel the Christian licking the back of your hand you can be assured that no attack is imminent. Back away quietly.

There is a group of Superior Beings you may encounter in CF. Known as the Moderators or Mods or They Who Will Be Obeyed, these Divine Creatures came to Earth with Powers and Abilities Beyond Those of Mortal Men/Women. They can be recognised by their blinding radiance and a tiara.

In the unfortunate event you encounter one of these Heavenly Creatures the protocol is strict. Do NOT speak. Do NOT attempt eye contact. Prostrate yourself face down, full length on the floor with arms by your sides. Raise your head and tap it gently but firmly on the floor three times while repeating the following mantra:

“I am the stain beneath your feet. I am the toe jam of your camel.”

If you hear a deep, guttural rumbling sound this is the Magnificent One expressing its approval of your abject abasement. Raise your body slowly and shuffle out backwards on all fours.

Occasionally you will come across gaunt, decrepit individuals dressed in soiled garments and cowering in foetid corners. Do not be afraid. These are your fellow atheists.
OB

 

[grahamsnumber]

What is your belief on our existence and how life came to be here on earth?

Hi, BNR32FAN. Of course, that's a huge question that we'll no doubt get into, but the short version is that I think life evolved on Earth over billions of years, starting with very simple molecules that randomly interacted to get a slightly more complicated molecule that would copy itself by simple chemical reactions (and most of those copies would be pretty bad). Even getting that far, to the very simplest version of reproduction, took most of a billion years. Then evolution continued. We'll have to talk more - a big, big subject!

 

[grahamsnumber]

Greetings! I'm a little more open minded than @Winken is, LoL.

If you're the good natured sort, I'd be glad to discuss things with you, although I can warn you right off the bat that I believe very strongly in the supernatural, so we'd probably have about as much in common as a polar bear from the North Pole and a crocodile from the rain forests of West Africa.

But I'm usually a good natured sort myself, so maybe we'll at least have some fun together at some point down the road.

God bless, and welcome again to CF!

Thanks so much, Hidden in Him!

 

[grahamsnumber]

Hi grahamsnumber

My name is Occam’s Barber and I am the totally unofficial and absolutely unauthorised meeter and greeter for new atheist members of the Forum .

Firstly – Welcome to CF, The natives are friendly. Within CF you will be restricted to certain areas and will be expected to refrain from criticism of the teachings of various denominations. You are a guest. Please leave the toilet seat down.

For those areas you cannot enter you will be able to look through the bars and watch the Golden Ones at play. Please do not poke the occupants or attempt to feed them.

In the event you run into a Christian while wandering the deep, dank, corridors of CF there is an accepted protocol. With eyes downcast, bend forward in a small bow acknowledging the superior status of your Christian interlocutor. Extend your right hand, palm down. When you feel the Christian licking the back of your hand you can be assured that no attack is imminent. Back away quietly.

There is a group of Superior Beings you may encounter in CF. Known as the Moderators or Mods or They Who Will Be Obeyed, these Divine Creatures came to Earth with Powers and Abilities Beyond Those of Mortal Men/Women. They can be recognised by their blinding radiance and a tiara.

In the unfortunate event you encounter one of these Heavenly Creatures the protocol is strict. Do NOT speak. Do NOT attempt eye contact. Prostrate yourself face down, full length on the floor with arms by your sides. Raise your head and tap it gently but firmly on the floor three times while repeating the following mantra:

“I am the stain beneath your feet. I am the toe jam of your camel.”

If you hear a deep, guttural rumbling sound this is the Magnificent One expressing its approval of your abject abasement. Raise your body slowly and shuffle out backwards on all fours.

Occasionally you will come across gaunt, decrepit individuals dressed in soiled garments and cowering in foetid corners. Do not be afraid. These are your fellow atheists.
OB

Excellent! I am your obedient servant. <eyes down>

 

[Occams Barber]

Excellent! I am your obedient servant. <eyes down>

I am overjoyed that you have mistaken me for one of the Golden Ones but I must be honest.

Like you I am a non believer but unlike you, I have a talent for grovelling and obsequiousness. Consequently I am merely a Servant to the Masters.
OB

 

[grahamsnumber]

Sorry.... I just thought of two other ones that might grab your fancy?

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.



Would an Intelligence / intelligence..... who may have existed in some sense from eternity in the past......
who could learn as higher and higher levels of experiment were conducted with fundamental or nearly fundamental energy....... become emotionally attached to what was being formed and created..... especially living beings?

Near death experiencer Mellen Benedict was shown a variation on The Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse that very much resembles Chapter 13 in Stephen Hawking's Universe. (It was entitled The Enthropic Principle).

Quite frankly I suspect that Dr. Hawking could be something of a Closet Theist or perhaps polytheist like Dr. Albert Einstein..... but he claims to be an Atheist.... due to the pressure that is put on our scientists to stay away from anything resembling religious belief. (High level bureaucrats and government officials have noticed that Theists......... tend to have difficulty working on new variations of Terminator Seed Technology.... and such inventions that might cause a budding philosopher some pangs of conscience?!


Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

Hi, @DennisTate. I read the post you pointed me too, and I can't say I found it particularly useful. Although not a physicist, I do have some background in physics (I started as a physics major in college, but ended up switching to computer science and math). I'm not quite sure what question you're asking in the first paragraph (I assume it's rhetorical); are you asking if a supernatural intelligence could become emotionally attached to living beings? If that is indeed your question, it's not clear how that's related to the larger issue.

I'm not familiar with Mellen Benedict, but I'll try to remember to look him up. As far as pressure being put on scientists to stay away from religion, I've never seen anything real, although in general the culture does tend to be fairly secular. But I have known people in the academic scientific community who were religious (not many, but definitely some). In the government, of course, it goes very strongly the other way. Most polls show that somewhere around 10% of the population in the US claims to have no belief in a god (although most won't directly use the word "atheist"). That means that statistically there should be upwards of 50 nonbelievers in the Congress. However, none of them say that they don't believe in God. So that means a reasonable number are lying and saying that they're Christian when they're actually not. So the pressure is strong to say that you're Christian rather than to say you're not.

 

[grahamsnumber]

Hello. I also am pretty far out there, but the theist version lol. I was never an atheist, my bare bottom belief was deism years ago. Anyway, I believe that UFOs can challenge a person who rejects all supernatural phenomena. These objects do not just come in from a certain direction, they appear & disappear, they physically effect equipment (like the 2 Iranian jet fighters that went after one in the 80s, and both jets had their weapon system go down), they have been known to fluctuate their shape, they take off at insane speeds yet do not cause friction noise. They are of a different realm IMO. If they were not it doesn't make sense to me why they would not have taken us over a long long time ago.

Extraterrestrial beings visiting us are not supernatural in the typical sense, although I am very skeptical about their reality. This is again a big subject, but over the years I've seen many investigations. There are a number of subtle problems with the stories. For example, if you look at the first reports when they became a "thing" back in the 1940s, the physical evidence you find is photographs that are grainy and just at the limit of the resolution of the technology at the time. Then, you skip to the 1960s and you'll find exactly the same thing, even though cameras were better. The same thing in the 1970s. And the 1980s. And so on. So if you believe the photos show spacecraft from alien civilizations, then it seems that you have to believe that all those aliens somehow control the evidence they allow humans to collect so that it's always just at the limit of our technology, right down to details of the cameras used. And if you believe all the reports, then there must be many civilizations visiting us, all of whom control the evidence exactly. Why not deny evidence altogether? And do they all get along with each other?

Any phenomenon that remains just as difficult to solidify no matter what technology you're chasing it with deserves a lot of skepticism.

 

[grahamsnumber]

Welcome,

May God lead you to the truth, who is Christ Jesus.

Q: Have you read some of the gospels?

Hi, @I'm_Sorry. Yes, I have read all of the Gospels. I'm hoping to eventually read them in Greek, and have started studying it on the side. It goes a bit slowly because of time, so I might just take an actual course. What I have seen is that they are beautifully written, and give the strong appearance of mythic literature rather than historical reporting. The Gospel of Matthew, for instance, shows a beautiful chiastic structure common in ancient writings, in which there is a symmetric correspondence of story points, so that the first thing that happens after the midpoint of the story is a reflection of the last thing that happens before the midpoint, and the thing that happens second after the midpoint is a reflection of the second thing before the midpoint, and this continues all the way through the whole story, so that the very last thing that happens is a reflection of the very first thing that happens. Now some might point to that very fact as evidence of the divine origin of the book; the problem is that this isn't the only place we see this: it occurs in a number of ancient works that have nothing to do with Christianity, and no one points to that structure in those works as evidence of their supernatural origin.

 

[grahamsnumber]

Jesus is mention both in Jewish and Roman historical records. Neither of which believed that He was the Messiah. The men that followed Him risked their life to do so. They were beaten and almost killed several times, imprisoned, and suffered persecution from the Jews and Romans. Do you think they endured all that for a prank or a lie?

This was the starting point I had, as well. In particular, I always thought that the mentions of Jesus in Josephus were conclusive, but that was before I started to learn about them. It turns out that in the entire corpus of Josephus's writings there are only two mentions, and both are highly suspect as forgeries (one of them, the so-called "Testimonium Flavianum", is almost certainly a later interpolation, and the other is either an interpolation or a later misunderstanding of who was being talked about). Time after time after time, when you look at the extra-Biblical evidence, you find that it dissolves under close scrutiny. All of the later authors, such as Origen, Tacitus, Eusebius, et al., simply are quoting what earlier Christians were saying, so can't count as actual evidence.

Now, the interpretation of Josephus is not universally agreed-upon, even by secular scholars. But the pro-historicist arguments for the Josephus passages are weak at best.

 

[grahamsnumber]

Peter was crucified upside down because he refused to deny Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Peter watched Jesus be crucified. So what kind of false fabrication would be that important to knowingly endure that kind of torturous death?

As far as I understand, scholars are pretty sure Peter existed, because Paul mentions him repeatedly. But that's about it. We don't know how he died; the only place that his upside-down crucifixion is mentioned is in the apocryphal Acts of Peter, written some time in the mid-second century by Christian authors.

 

[grahamsnumber]

We've gotten into a mythicism discussion; should this be moved to another forum (and is there a way to do that?), rather than in the intro section? (Sorry if this is obvious)

 

[Dirk1540]

Extraterrestrial beings visiting us are not supernatural in the typical sense, although I am very skeptical about their reality. This is again a big subject, but over the years I've seen many investigations. There are a number of subtle problems with the stories. For example, if you look at the first reports when they became a "thing" back in the 1940s, the physical evidence you find is photographs that are grainy and just at the limit of the resolution of the technology at the time. Then, you skip to the 1960s and you'll find exactly the same thing, even though cameras were better. The same thing in the 1970s. And the 1980s. And so on. So if you believe the photos show spacecraft from alien civilizations, then it seems that you have to believe that all those aliens somehow control the evidence they allow humans to collect so that it's always just at the limit of our technology, right down to details of the cameras used. And if you believe all the reports, then there must be many civilizations visiting us, all of whom control the evidence exactly. Why not deny evidence altogether? And do they all get along with each other?

Any phenomenon that remains just as difficult to solidify no matter what technology you're chasing it with deserves a lot of skepticism.

No I don't believe we are talking about Extraterrestrial beings. But I guess this will become a moot point if you doubt the reality of them. I actually find the evidence to be off the charts. What is off the charts is how many people have spoken out. Unfortunately, even as we sit here in 2017, if CNN doesn't confirm something it remains 'Conspiracy Theory.' That video I posted, there was literal criteria as to why a case would make a top 10 list, actually a point system applied to the cases. As an example a police station flooded with calls from multiple locations, objects caught on radar, top ranking Air Force instructors who know the best current aviation technology witnessing an object that defies our technology, multiple witnesses, cases documented in military archives, etc. When it comes to UFOs...WHO the witnesses are means a lot. Pilots should be considered stronger testimony than people would have normal jobs!

I was hinting at how in fact I don't see it as Extraterrestrial beings because of...well again a moot point if you don't agree on the existence lol.

 

[Dirk1540]

As far as I understand, scholars are pretty sure Peter existed, because Paul mentions him repeatedly. But that's about it. We don't know how he died; the only place that his upside-down crucifixion is mentioned is in the apocryphal Acts of Peter, written some time in the mid-second century by Christian authors.

I'm not sure you understand how drastically you're underrating the gospels as historical data! You rank the apocryphal Acts of Peter as having more weight than the gospels?? And you started out denying that Jesus even existed. I think that you should realize that you are in the minority on issues even among atheist scholars. There are Jesus debates taking place in universities all over the world constantly. The vast majority of debaters taking the NEGATIVE position on Christianity grant way more historical facts then you are granting. Just saying.

I admit that historically speaking the traditional martyrdoms of the apostles have probably nothing going for them beyond faith. Peter does have a little bit more going for him at least (except for Paul). Eusebius, considered to be generally accurate in what he reports, records the martyrdoms of Peter (crucified upside down) and Paul. So does Clement of Rome. I also don't imagine it's too hard to imagine Nero of being capable of such a thing. It was during his reign that Peter & Paul were said to be killed in Rome, and the cemeteries there are still called by the names Peter & Paul (for whatever that's worth). So does a churchman named Gaius, who lived when Zephyrinus was Bishop of Rome. In written dialogue with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian opinion [The Montanists], Gaius says the following about the places where the sacred remains of the apostles in question are laid;

"I can point out the trophies [monuments] of the apostles. If you will go to the Vatican or the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded the church."

And that they were both martyred at the same time Bishop Dionysius of Corinth affirms in a letter written to the Romans;

"By your great council you have bound together what has grown from the seed that Peter and Paul sowed among Romans and Corinthians. For both of them sowed in our Corinth and instructed us together; in Italy too they taught jointly in the same place and were martyred at the same time."


EDIT...sorry, in regards to me pointing out that most people don't deny Jesus' existence, and they grant more facts than you do...I do realize that that's a poor man's argument and I should instead lay out the case as to WHY that is so! Sorry I'm just up to my eyes in other things right now...can someone else take this?

But grahamsnumber, you should really check out that book I posted earlier, the Amazon link...for some strange reason I used to be like you. Seemed like all I was uncovering was cheesy UFO accounts that were lame for a very long time. Then all the sudden I found myself uncovering some drastically more impressive material for some reason!

 

[DennisTate]

Hi, @DennisTate. I read the post you pointed me too, and I can't say I found it particularly useful. Although not a physicist, I do have some background in physics (I started as a physics major in college, but ended up switching to computer science and math). I'm not quite sure what question you're asking in the first paragraph (I assume it's rhetorical); are you asking if a supernatural intelligence could become emotionally attached to living beings? If that is indeed your question, it's not clear how that's related to the larger issue.

I'm not familiar with Mellen Benedict, but I'll try to remember to look him up. As far as pressure being put on scientists to stay away from religion, I've never seen anything real, although in general the culture does tend to be fairly secular. But I have known people in the academic scientific community who were religious (not many, but definitely some). In the government, of course, it goes very strongly the other way. Most polls show that somewhere around 10% of the population in the US claims to have no belief in a god (although most won't directly use the word "atheist"). That means that statistically there should be upwards of 50 nonbelievers in the Congress. However, none of them say that they don't believe in God. So that means a reasonable number are lying and saying that they're Christian when they're actually not. So the pressure is strong to say that you're Christian rather than to say you're not.

Wow...... I really hadn't quite thought of it that way before...... that does make sense!

Basically I am attempting to lay a foundation for the theory that human lives..... and all lives......
may be a bit like hologram technology....... combined with high level Artificial Intelligence...... but even more than that..........

.... If....... those near death experience accounts that indicate that every moment of your life.... and my life... .and Colton Burpo's life... and all lives of all eight million near death experiencers......have been recorded on something far beyond HD or DVD.........

Then..... the possibility needs to be considered that perhaps each of us is something of a reality film STAR... .from the viewpoint of higher dimensions of space - time.

Here is what former Atheist Mellen Benedict wrote about a more Theistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse........


Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

 

[Apostle Joseph]

Hello

My name is Apostle Joeseph Atobatele and I am the general overseer of Light of God Deliverance Church a full gospel ministry devoted to the revival of Apostlic signs, Holy Ghost fireworks, signs and wonders and unlimited demonstration of the power of God to break the chains of darkness and set the captives free.

I am a Prophet, Evangelist, teacher, Pastor AND Teacher of the word. His life and that of his wife (Pastor Joy) and their daughters Praise and Prosper are living proofs that all power belongs to God.

 

[DennisTate]

We've gotten into a mythicism discussion; should this be moved to another forum (and is there a way to do that?), rather than in the intro section? (Sorry if this is obvious)

Actually.... I would like to present you with an opportunity for me.... to attempt to make you........
(G-d willing)..... extremely wealthy....... because President Trump is in a challenging position and really needs the assistance of a friendly Atheist.........

..... if he has any hope of initiating a full fledged JUBILEE year by Yom Kippur 2017.......

I believe that President Trump and his new Minister of Education..... (at least that is what we would term her up here in Canada).......
are in a position to get some variation of Intelligent Design Theory taught in USA schools.... but they will need P. M. Benjamin Netanyahu and Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman to be able to pull it off...........

As an Atheist...... would you be impressed if Israel, the USA, Canada, Jordan, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Scotland, Ireland and even Nepal...........
were no longer in the Red.... / debt... by the year 2020.... but instead were operating in the "Black?"

This can be arranged.......
with the assistance of a few friendly Atheists!


North American churches should each have their own currency!

and please notice the intriguing statement at the 24 minute mark in this video......
as well of course the Hurricane of Money dream of the 17 minute mark.........

... this has serious Artistic Value.........

The idea of getting you to be a part of President TRump's advisory team......
might fit in the Writers Guilt forum here........

 

[DennisTate]

Hello

My name is Apostle Joeseph Atobatele and I am the general overseer of Light of God Deliverance Church a full gospel ministry devoted to the revival of Apostlic signs, Holy Ghost fireworks, signs and wonders and unlimited demonstration of the power of God to break the chains of darkness and set the captives free.

I am a Prophet, Evangelist, teacher, Pastor AND Teacher of the word. His life and that of his wife (Pastor Joy) and their daughters Praise and Prosper are living proofs that all power belongs to God.

I can identify with what you mean by this.....
my own personal testimony would remind you more of the man who had the Legion... than just about anybody else........
The miracles that I have seen in my 58 years are too numerous... and too powerful to fit with the Atheistic World View........

 

[DennisTate]

Scientists are actually starting the realize that the existence of God is more probable than improbable based on what is actually necessary for life to exist here on earth. When you take into consideration everything that is necessary for life to exist on earth, the odds of everything coming together so perfectly is not just improbable but impossible. Here's a great video that shows how science is proving that the theory of God's existence is more probable than improbable. Now before everyone starts going off about David Pack I just want to say I know his beliefs are not in line with the scriptures but in this particular video he does make a great case about how science is proving God's existence.

We Christians tend to fall into pretty serious misconceptions.......
based on what we are so certain that we know that we know.... but
our assumptions are not necessarily all that accurate.

Back in 1988, I was a member in good standing of the Worldwide Church of God
and I thought that my church.... was the best of the best of the best of the best of all churches.....

Wow ... .was I ever wrong on that one.... because our knowledge.... on some topics... had made us proud... .and our view of other churches was either close to....... or truly an example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

When I read parts of the near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie I began to view many scriptures in a whole new light.... and by 1991 I had gotten myself disfellowshipped from the WWCG.......

..... I actually suggested to Pastor G... M.... that he may as well kick me out because I was not very good at remaining silent as I found out more and more and more............


.near-death
.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05c

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"