hi! new here - and i need some help

[Achichem]

I get so excited seeing someone in such craving for this knowledge,

G-d's being outside time.
People justify it too them self with lies (it been happening for years), and the faithful then see no reason to use it for argument, as the people need to hear the calling before they can begin to understand anyway.
But I will explain….

There is a misunderstanding about time, that is that it is relative.
(A variable dependant on a constant)

I am afraid however, that is mathematically impossible, because time is a dimension. The forth dimension to be exact.

The truth of the matter is that we only measure time in a relative, because it is impossible to subjectively measure real time without being outside time.

Always me to explain in layman terms…(I mean that in a good way)

If time were as people often assume, just as other dimension such as width, length, height, there is one fundamental problem that is that if it were as them it would be just as easy to go forward as it is to go backward.

This is not the case with time, actually we have something on the contrary, and forwardly moving objective dimension with no way to applies opposing force to switch direction..
Why, because there is at any given point one possible time all other times, during the duration of the current time, is actually not in existence, or in the state of memory.

There is also a second difference, Time is not dependant on it subject, but instead the environment. This means it is in fact the dimension of time must be paralleled or shared between both environment and subject. And for all data know up in to this point in time about physics, it is safe to say that time is in fact the only shared dimension, and in so is the fabric of our network (Allows interaction of multiple subjects).

This is as far however as you can bring most atheist/agnostic physicists…

This is not however how it ends, for these unique principle which apply only to time, entail a few certain repercussions.
Those are:
-Backward time travel is impossible as long as time apply to you
-There must be a creator outside of time

A little background to understand the next part…

The equation of existence states:
(what was in the beginning) = (What is now)
This then would state that it is possible that the fundamental something was always here.


There are only two other possibilities:
(What was in the beginning) – (what is now) = 0
Which would state that it is possible that something is dieing, and it would also mean that increased fundamental something was always here

The third, and last possibility:
(What was in the beginning) + (what is now) = 0
There is and was a creative force.
(Ask to see: Theory: of how God simply is)
To see why this creative force is a universal truth using math and logical deduction.

Now? What does time prove, well before one can answer that one must first understand time.

T# represents what time is it?
T1 represents single point in time
T2 represents the next point in time after T1

Subject time demotion:
T1 = sum of subject
T2 = new sum of subject
Time motion = T# =(T1 + T2) – T1

Environmental time demotion:
T1 = reciprocal sum
T2 = new reciprocal sum
Time motion = T# =(T1 + T2) – T1

Guiding Balance principle:
T1Envirmental + T1 Subject = T2Envirmental + T2 Subject

Hence is time, it simply is the moving forward in a wave.
A one-way - street, because ultimately and any give point of time there is a raise and a fall, this happening outside time to make time. Eternal as dependent on it source, that is what is outside it own principle.

These principles outside time are called universal truths…
One of which is (+) creation, one of witch is (-) destruction.
One has self-concept (see theory: what is the image of G-d)

And anything with self-concept is an entity
Anyway I know it seems too complicated for you to understand, I know it was for me the first time I heard. So let me make it simple, for the sake of grasping something.

Time can only be perpetual creation and destruction (Think animation), this requires outside principles/forces/entity, principals, which match what we know about G-d to a T.

See this is the kind of tangent I was afraid of…
We should probably keep this time stuff to the other thread we will make about G-d /predestination/choice….

Yeshua and his connection to the feasts mentioned, especially in being a sacrifice

I do not really like to refer people a lot without any explanation of my own but there is just so much to cover.
Passover...
Days of unleavened bread…
Pentecost….

The evidence for the meaning of the second round of feasts can be found in Revelation.
However I would get a handle on the first, as they are the ones fulfilled.

Yes. But...see above. I don't know! I just don't know what to do...
Very difficult, and so to start…
Keep the traditions out of worship

Are you talking about the actual feasts here, or something bigger that the feasts symbolize?
Remember all celebration are for monumental events…So G-d Holy days are for G-d’s monumental events/victories

So yes, I am talking about the events that we are celebrating in these feasts.

Are these the three feasts we talked about? And were they not already holy? Did he sanctify them by...giving them their deeper meaning?
Remember Yeshua operates outside the limits of time and space, so yes to us these vent happened after the messiah’s life. But to G-d, and remember these are his feast, they happened at the beginning before man even the earth was made.

So he sanctified the first fruits – Abraham, David…Peter, Paul…the saints of today…at the foundation of the world, but we the saints experience time unlike G-d, so we experience them at a time, called fulfillment (that why nothing really changes, just more understanding)

Shalom,
G-d Bless and give you strength and words,
Datsar

Thank you,
Henaynei for bring up that most excellent ponit

 

[feus]

"I get so excited seeing someone in such craving for this knowledge, "

Aw ^^ - I'm so excited there's someone willing to share!

And...all that about time! "It seems too complicated for me to understand" is an understatement! Even when you summed it up I didn't quite get it...

OH! I went to the Passover link, and I almost completely understand it now. See, I got the connection between Passover and the crucifixion! The lambs' blood - and the Angel of Death - and he died and it's his blood - and I get it! And it was on the same day...nobody ever told me that. Thank you And the other ones, too!

"So he sanctified the first fruits – Abraham, David…Peter, Paul…the saints of today…at the foundation of the world, but we the saints experience time unlike G-d, so we experience them at a time, called fulfillment (that why nothing really changes, just more understanding)"

Does this mean that He sort of...chose them before the foundation of the world? Because we know He does call people...but then, what about free will? Can we only exercise free will when it comes to sinning and not sinning? Also, I read about Pentecost in that link, and does this mean that all people must eventually be saved? What about separating the wheat from the weeds, and the sheep from the goats?

(and, oops, I just when back and it seems predestination and free will are for another thread...they just kinda crept in . disregard if necessary)

Oh! But what you said about fulfillment, that makes sense, in an I'm-still-pondering way.

And it's dinnertime now, so I going to have to go...but I think I pretty much included all my major questions.

-feus

 

[Achichem]

Does this mean that He sort of...chose them before the foundation of the world? Because we know He does call people...but then, what about free will? Can we only exercise free will when it comes to sinning and not sinning?
Ok, so you want some food for thought on pre-destiny, Ok, I can give you a little.

Does this mean that He sort of...chose them before the foundation of the world?
Yes, G-d Choices have all been since the beginning and are till the end.

Because we know He does call people...but then, what about free will?
First, G-d does not choose people randomly; I assure you there is something very special about those he chooses.

Second, choice from G-d eyes has already past; pre-decided by us.
You see He is on on looker onto a little toy car on a track of time.
He knows already what the little car is going to do. Not because He told it what to do.
But because the Car has already told him.

To quote the matrix “You have already made the choice; now you need to find out why”

Can we only exercise free will when it comes to sinning and not sinning?
We have self concept, and can fully control ourselves; but what we must come to realize is that though we in fact have control of ourselves, the environment of which we are part; is not ours but borrowed from our father.

The father wishes to give you this environment;this dominion;so that you can be a full daughter or son of God. But he must first see if you can control the self. For self-concept is the power of G-d.

Also, I read about Pentecost in that link, and does this mean that all people must eventually be saved?
No, all will receive the spirit; not all will choice to embrace what they are given.
In the words of LORD Yeshua.

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.”

What about separating the wheat from the weeds, and the sheep from the goats?
Weeds, are Burned out of existence in the Gehenna/lake of fire/second death I am afraid.
(Remember everyone get their chance)

Shalom,
Datsar

Ps: So I have to ask; did you get more then you bargained for coming to ask your question?
It wasn't what you expected is it?

 

[BenTsion]

Feus,
First of all, I'd like to apologize for not being able to respond more actively to your questions, but I'm temporarily offline at home, so I've been posting from a cyber-cafe (which limits my time to 1 hour a day).

I've heard that theology concerning Yeshua not knowing who he was and find it rather disturbing. It is heretical, to say the least. No scripture seems to back it up (unless you really stretch the verses) and it kind of makes no sense. How would he have been able to resist sin if he didn't have a relationship with the Father? And how could he have an early relationship with the Father not knowing who he was?

As for the Christmas thing, you see, it's not that we have anything against those who celebrate it. It's just that our roots are on the 1st century church, not on Rome (how can a healthy church have roots on Roman grounds? With all due respect to Roman Catholics, we MJs do not think that can be possible). The 1st century church celebrated the biblical holidays (which other posters have already told you about).

Plus, the correct focus should be on Yeshua's death-and-resurection, which is the very foundation of our faith. Not on his birth. Though his birth was important, our victory was in the calvary, not in the manger!

In the Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[feus]

Ok, do you remember when I said the fulfillment deal made sense in an I'm-still-thinking-about-it way? Ok, well, last night I got it (finally), and that made me really happy It's sort of like this: Abraham (and others) are made right because of their faith because Yeshua died on the cross, regardless of when it actually happened in our world. So, he really did it for all people of all time, not just those who are living after 30 A.D. I mean, I understand the sacrifice now, but what took me so long to realize was that that applied not only to these last couple thousand years, but all time before that. That's why any person is justified by faith!

Anyway, I thought it was cool that I finally got it, and it's so neat that I wanted to share with everybody ^^

DaTsar:

First, G-d does not choose people randomly; I assure you there is something very special about those he chooses.

Second, choice from G-d eyes has already past; pre-decided by us.
You see He is on on looker onto a little toy car on a track of time.
He knows already what the little car is going to do. Not because He told it what to do.
But because the Car has already told him.

To quote the matrix “You have already made the choice; now you need to find out why”

But if there is something special about those he chooses, is it something inherent in their personalities? I mean, did he have control of the distribution of 'specialness' or is that something that is sort of gained living life?

But the little car analogy makes sense. I've also heard this one: That all of this earth's time is a parade, and He's looking down on it from the top of a skyscraper - that way he can see everything even though someone in the beginning or middle of the parade cannot see the end of it.

We have self concept, and can fully control ourselves; but what we must come to realize is that though we in fact have control of ourselves, the environment of which we are part; is not ours but borrowed from our father.

The father wishes to give you this environment;this dominion;so that you can be a full daughter or son of God. But he must first see if you can control the self. For self-concept is the power of G-d.

Controlling the self? So...what does controlling the self get us? Isn't that sort of earning things? Am I totally off base here?

And, ok, so not all people will eventually be saved - but all people will be given the opportunity. That makes much more sense and sounds more just than the explanation given me in my church: that if someone has never heard of Jesus (which is something entirely out of their control), then they're going to hell. I mean...what's with that?

So, really, what happens at the end for those who are not saved is their souls just kinda...are blown out like a candle? In other words - total annihilation?

BenTsion:

No worries that you can't reply! I'm glad that I can have the honor of taking up a portion of your daily hour

I've heard that theology concerning Yeshua not knowing who he was and find it rather disturbing. It is heretical, to say the least. No scripture seems to back it up (unless you really stretch the verses) and it kind of makes no sense. How would he have been able to resist sin if he didn't have a relationship with the Father? And how could he have an early relationship with the Father not knowing who he was?

Yes, I thought it was kinda off, but my teacher...well, he's a really nice guy and I do like him, but I think he felt like I was challenging his authority by questioning it, which, maybe I could've been more respectful. But anyway, I've been reassured by your comments so thank you.

As for the Christmas thing, you see, it's not that we have anything against those who celebrate it. It's just that our roots are on the 1st century church, not on Rome (how can a healthy church have roots on Roman grounds? With all due respect to Roman Catholics, we MJs do not think that can be possible). The 1st century church celebrated the biblical holidays (which other posters have already told you about).

Plus, the correct focus should be on Yeshua's death-and-resurection, which is the very foundation of our faith. Not on his birth. Though his birth was important, our victory was in the calvary, not in the manger!

I know! I was looking up some Christmas stuff, and the things they did on Saturnalia! It's shocking, some of it...to think that this is what America's beloved holiday stems from!

And I completely see your point about focusing on what's important, and it's kinda funny because Christmas is a much bigger holiday (in my family at least) than Easter!

But anyway, my mother wants me to come to dinner, and I'm going to go because she made it specially for me.

Thanks again for all your help! I'm so thankful for this...

-feus

 

[BenTsion]

Feus,
Shalom!
As far as faith in the Messiah is concerned, you reached the same conclusion I did some time ago. Yes, Yeshua died for them also, and that's why he went to Sheol to 'wake them up' so that they, too, would inaugurate paradise together with Him.

As for the salvation (or not) of those who didn't have the chance to hear the gospel, we can only trust G-d's fairness. I personally believe they SOMEHOW will have a chance to respond to Yeshua's call - I do not know HOW because scripture doesn't seem to indicate that is possible. However, I prefer to think of it that way because: 1 - With G-d everything is possible; 2 - There are times scripture is silent about things. No-one can be saved apart from Yeshua, though. That's VERY clear in scriptures.

Speaking of scriptures, since you're investigating Messianic Judaism, I suggest that you try to get a more 'accurate' translation of the Bible. I personally recommend the 'Complete Jewish Bible', translated by Dr. David Stern. The ordinary translations we have out there are sometimes innacurate and can be quite misleading, especially in regards to the Torah, and the Jewish roots of our faith. In fact, this shabbat the rabbi of our sinagogue was showing us how the concept of 'grace' is all over the OT, even though our translations tend to display it as a NT thing, just to name one of the few problems there are with popular translations.

May ADONAI enlighten your quest for truth!

In the Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[feus]

As far as faith in the Messiah is concerned, you reached the same conclusion I did some time ago. Yes, Yeshua died for them also, and that's why he went to Sheol to 'wake them up' so that they, too, would inaugurate paradise together with Him.

Well, I have heard that last bit before, but it never really connected until now.

Speaking of scriptures, since you're investigating Messianic Judaism, I suggest that you try to get a more 'accurate' translation of the Bible. I personally recommend the 'Complete Jewish Bible', translated by Dr. David Stern. The ordinary translations we have out there are sometimes innacurate and can be quite misleading, especially in regards to the Torah, and the Jewish roots of our faith. In fact, this shabbat the rabbi of our sinagogue was showing us how the concept of 'grace' is all over the OT, even though our translations tend to display it as a NT thing, just to name one of the few problems there are with popular translations.

I completely agree that many translations - including the one I currently own and use, the NLT - are indeed misleading in some parts because the translators set out to translate them in light of their own personal faith convictions! And I would like to get a more accurate version, yes, and I looked the one you suggested up on bn.com (because I wouldn't know where else to get it) and it looks good - but I'm going to be cautious for now as to whether this guy isn't doing the same thing, except coming from the other way. I suppose I don't really know enough about the subject to actually...um, be able to say whether it is accurately translated, and I've never heard of it before. But I do want it, if only to get a different perspective than the NLT (and that's probably not the only reason) and I'm going to be babysitting this weekend, so I think I will have enough money to buy the paperback version, at least. Why not?

It is also interesting to note that I haven't babysitted - sat? - in months, and suddenly when I'm going to you suggest a new Bible (and this one in particular).

May ADONAI enlighten your quest for truth!

That is my prayer every night.

In case you didn't get this from the post, thanks very much for the suggestion!

-feus

 

[Achichem]

I disagree about the changing bible versions…I have never seen a very good translation…

However, I have never done tests on the NLT or CJB, so I don’t really know where either stand…
I can tell you versions like NASV,NIV-
Have a NT Bias of over 50%
That mean that there is drastically different translation styles is between NT and Old Testament; (English equivalents to Hebrew root words are used dramatically less often then English equivalents to Greek root words.)

KJV: however comes up pretty good…I stress pretty

Point however being…your version will work for reading…and it is really only bible study that you need a new one for…. strong words and all…. so I recommend a computer bible for study…free ones like e-sword are available and work better anyway…

So, really, what happens at the end for those who are not saved is their souls just kinda...are blown out like a candle? In other words - total annihilation?

Well Yes, but it’s not quite…
First they are burned out of existence…
Second, it really just giving them what they ask for…that is a world without G-d!

Controlling the self? So...what does controlling the self get us? Isn't that sort of earning things? Am I totally off base here?

It is everything, however this is not something easily explained…
Ok, compare us to the animals…what difference do we find?
Understanding yourself in relation to other things perception…
From perception all it takes is dominion or power….
From there you can make assumptions (only entity’s with self concept can)…
You can create…you can destroy…
You can make true choice…

is it something inherent in their personalities? I mean, did he have control of the distribution of 'specialness' or is that something that is sort of gained living life?

He gives in to all people, but only certain people seem to use it. Who knows what it is, but it shows…I am sure G-d natures it, and does most of the planting and teaching, and doing…but the first step is ours to take…. that seems to be how G-d does it.

“If there were 100 steps between us and G-d, He would make 999 of them, and encourage us all the way up our one”

As far as faith in the Messiah is concerned, you reached the same conclusion I did some time ago. Yes, Yeshua died for them also, and that's why he went to Sheol to 'wake them up' so that they, too, would inaugurate paradise together with Him.

Intresting take, but
Wake them up?….but they were/are dead…
I assure you if every soul just went to sleep when they died we would have too many souls…
Keep in mind, according to genesis all things with life have souls…
That a lot of animals…are they to in this paradise?
Plus, It just doesn’t line up with what a lot of bible says,elsewhere…
Please, see my thread on the topic:
What happen after death?
Then we can disscuss

Shalom,
Datsar

 

[BenTsion]

DaTsar,
The 'wake them up' thing was merely a euphemism. I don't personally believe they are asleep (meaning unconscious). The same euphemism can be found many places throughout scriptures.

Feus,
I can't really tell if Dr. Stern is doing the same thing, the other way around. But what I can tell you is, first of all, he's got a good reputation among MJs. Second, he (said he) was trying to use the same criterium of translation for both the Tanach and the Brit Hadasha,
which is clearly NOT the case for most translations we have nowadays. Oftentimes, we find the very same words translated differently in OT and NT. Gee, even NAMES sometimes are translated differently (Yaakov, for instance, is translated Jacob in OT and James in NT).
Point is, the church has long established (I don't know on what authority, though) that the NT is far more important than the OT, and translations reflect that. Now, if a translation tries to correct that bias, then at least it is worth taking a look at. Of course we'll never know unless we learn ancient greek and hebrew ourselves.

In the Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[Achichem]

DaTsar,
The 'wake them up' thing was merely a euphemism. I don't personally believe they are asleep (meaning unconscious). The same euphemism can be found many places throughout scriptures.

Well, I am happy to hear you say that
But then why think think they rose that day with him is still puzzeling, I still think you might what to re-read, when the bible says they 'awake'(just trying to help you out)

Now, if a translation tries to correct that bias, then at least it is worth taking a look at.

You seem to think he did pretty good, might just have to go pick one up
myself

Of course we'll never know unless we learn ancient greek and hebrew ourselves.

I got one, now it's just a matter of perfecting it
and picking up the other...not that it helps much Greek is still unclear I assure you.

 

[BenTsion]

DaTsar,
You're right... 'waking them up' sounds like they were resurected, which is clearly not the case. Anyway, what Yeshua did was take those in Sheol to Paradise.

The problem about the originals of the NT is that even mastering Greek wouldn't really cut it. I mean, we do not know for sure exactly what was written in Greek and what was written in Hebrew. We can only guess through context and some other historical documents. Some people even argue there were portions written in Aramaic and Latin, though I personally seriously doubt it. (Esp. Aramaic, which was a non-liturgical, commercial language - not normally used for religious purposes)

In Him,
Ben Tsion

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Shalom Feus,

Firstly, I know that it may be a little belated, welcome. I too and new to these forums.

It is rare that I see such passion for learning in a young person as yourself, however, it is a true blessing. In these forums and in the responses you have received thus far there are some true Jewish theological points and some Christian theological points, however all the responses that I have read are honorable and the kavannah (intention) is praiseworthy in them.

Realize that when you discuss or try to discern the writings of Paul, that this is a field that many very wise scholars are still, to this day, debating and analyzing. The answers may not be easy to resolve, but you will benefit from the learning process. By starting at such a young age, perhaps it will be you who the truth is finally brought to and you can then impart it to the rest of us. Remember also that Scriptural truths are still being discovered, they are like the rest of the miracles of our world - we are always and continually learning more and more. The Torah of G-d is living, and the knowledge of Truth lives inside of you. Contemplation and meditation upon Hashem's Torah will ultimately bring you to a place of deeper understanding, and in this place you will begin to understand that while something appears to be one thing, it may also be something else. This is why the Scripture tells us that it is the delight of the L-rd to hide a thing, and that it is the glory of man to search a thing out.

Jewish people have a slightly different way of looking at the world. I am sure you have realized this from your relationship with your past Jewish friend. There is an old Jewish saying: "where there are two Jews, there are three opinions". Have you ever watched the movie adaptation of Sholom Aleichem's book, "Tevye the Dairyman"? It is called "Fiddler on the Roof". In the movie there is a scene where Tevye and a few other men are standing by while an argument is made between two other men. Tevye says to one of the men, "You are right!" and then after another exchange he looks to the other man and says, "You are also right". This causes one of the spectators who is standing beside Tevye to respond, "Wait a minute, first you say, he is right, and then you say he [the other man] is right, they can't BOTH be right", to which Tevye, in classical Jewish form, responds, "You are right too!"

While some things seem to be very confusing and almost unexplainable, we must recognize that it is ok for us not to fully grasp every detail. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, but it's ok if one and one doesn't equal two every time.

We should never, however, allow our understanding to interfere with our observance of G-d's will. Be that observance Torah mitzvot, or basic noachide observance. We must continue at all times to love Hashem with all our Hearts, Minds, and Strength and we must truly (not superficially) love our neighbor as ourselves.

I'll leave you with one last Jewish saying. At the end of the second chapter of Pirke Avos (The ethics of our Fathers), Rabbi Tarfon used to say: "The day is short, the task is great, the workers are slothful, the wage is abundant and the master is urgent. It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task. Yet, you are not free to desist from it. If you have studied much in the Torah much reward will be given to you, for faithful is your employer who shall pay you the reward of your labor. And know that the reward for the righteous shall be in the time to come."

Feus, it is my hope that these words bless you and that you find the answers you seek. There are many talented, loving, and generous people here in these forums, I am certain you will find both truth and blessing in their responses.

Kol Tuv, (All the best)
Rabbi Cohen

 

[feus]

BenTsion: Thanks again for your suggestion, and I'd probably be going to the bookstore after I got my money anyhow...so I am going to take a look at the very least! Especially since you recommend it, and what you say about it, and...right.

DaTsar: Do you remember your pre-made post, that I said could wait until later? (the after-death one) Now is a good time. If that's alright for you, that is. You see, I was discussing this sort of thing with my friend (not the ultra-Christian one, however) and it made me kind of realize how little I actually know on the subject (so what else is new?). Also, reading your and BenTsion's sort-of discussion made me realize it as well. (And this request is not just for DaTsar, of course, it would be wonderful if anyone else helped me out because...well, because, and...yes.)


Rabbi Cohen: It is the perfect time ^^

Realize that when you discuss or try to discern the writings of Paul, that this is a field that many very wise scholars are still, to this day, debating and analyzing. The answers may not be easy to resolve, but you will benefit from the learning process. By starting at such a young age, perhaps it will be you who the truth is finally brought to and you can then impart it to the rest of us. Remember also that Scriptural truths are still being discovered, they are like the rest of the miracles of our world - we are always and continually learning more and more. The Torah of G-d is living, and the knowledge of Truth lives inside of you. Contemplation and meditation upon Hashem's Torah will ultimately bring you to a place of deeper understanding, and in this place you will begin to understand that while something appears to be one thing, it may also be something else. This is why the Scripture tells us that it is the delight of the L-rd to hide a thing, and that it is the glory of man to search a thing out.

I realize what you are saying, and what you say later about details. And I really do need to completely immerse myself in a part of the Bible I've neglected for far too long. I have been trying.

There is an old Jewish saying: "where there are two Jews, there are three opinions".

lol! Yes, I have heard this; unfortunately I am not familiar with the scene in Fiddler on the Roof - although it was funny.

We should never, however, allow our understanding to interfere with our observance of G-d's will. Be that observance Torah mitzvot, or basic noachide observance.

I'm curious, and keep in mind that I don't know very much - but what is noachide observance?

Thank you so much for your post! I am so glad you took the time to respond to me, belated or not - and like I said, it wasn't actually.


Thank you everybody! And now I'm going to go and get some shuteye because I haven't gotten enough sleep for the past...week, and I really need to start catching up.

Happy Thanksgiving!

-feus

 

[iitb]

I'm curious, and keep in mind that I don't know very much - but what is noachide observance?

The seven universal laws given to Noah:
1) Do not murder.
2) Do not steal.
3) Do not worship false gods.
4) Do not be sexually immoral.
5) Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
6) Do not curse God.
7) Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Some believe that this is all gentile are required to follow, while others feel that the entire Torah is for everyone. It just depends who you ask.

 

[Achichem]

Do you remember your pre-made post, that I said could wait until later? (the after-death one) Now is a good time.

This is a good intro,
http://www.christianforums.com/t58735

After that I am sure you will have questions.
Feel free to read it in sections, as it is quite long.

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Rabbi Cohen,

I am curious, you mentioned something about the Noahide laws. I am curious what you think of them? Do you believe that they were given only to Noah and just a few of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures, or do you believe that they were given to all when they were mentioned? There are a few things that do not fit with me with them, which I will be happy to elaborate on in the next few days.

Peace,
Valid Name

 

[BenTsion]

Shalom all,
The Noahide laws were quoted by the Council of Jerusalem (in the book of Acts) as being universal laws Jews and Gentiles alike should keep (the Holy Spirit agreed with them). The Torah is mandatory (in terms of a loving obedience, not salvation) for all Jewish people. Gentiles are free to keep them or not (though scripture says the Torah is good for sanctification). However, everyone who claims to love G-d must keep the Noahide laws (many Christians actually DO keep them without realizing they're doing it).

In the Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Greetings Rabbi Cohen,

I am curious, you mentioned something about the Noahide laws. I am curious what you think of them? Do you believe that they were given only to Noah and just a few of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures, or do you believe that they were given to all when they were mentioned? There are a few things that do not fit with me with them, which I will be happy to elaborate on in the next few days.

Peace,
Valid Name

Shalom Valid name,

In response to your question about what I think of the Noachide laws I will tell you that with the proper kavannah and the desire to serve the one true G-d that through the observance of these mitzvos it is possible to attain the level of chassidei umos ha'olam, (the righteous among the nations). It is taught by our Chazal, (Sages) that these righteous will merit a share in Olam HaBa.

But let's take a look at what the Noachide laws really are:

You asked me if I believd that they were given only to Noach and just a few of the people in the Hebrew Scriptures, or whether or not I believed that they were given to all when they were mentioned. The answer to this is very simple, and it doesn't require my opinion whatsoever, we simply need to go to the Torah and see what it tells us regarding this covenant.

Bereshis 9:8-13 says:

"Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark. I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth."

Now in being fair I want to come as close to the original meaning of the text as possible, however, I can't seem to find a way to write in Hebrew here as I have seen some (Signatures specifically). So, I will transliterate the original Hebrew with the interlinear translations so that we have as close to the original text as possible:

• 8:V'yomer Elokim el-Noach v'el-banayv ito l'mor
  and spake G-d unto Noah and to his sons with him saying,

• 9:v'Ani henei mehkim et-b'riti eetkhem v'et-zar'akhem achareykhem
  and I behold establish my covenant with you and with your seed after you.

• 10:v'et kol-nefesh haChaiya asher eetkhem ba-of babaheymah u'v'khol chaiya haAretz
  And with every creature living that is with you of the fowl of the cattle and of every beast of the earth
  eetkhem mikol yotzei hateivah l'chol chaiya haAretz.
  with you from all that go out of the ark to every beast of the earth

• 11:Va-hokimoti et-b'riti eetkhem v'lo-yikareht kol-basar
  And I will establish my covenant with you neither shall be cut off all flesh
  od mimei haMabul v'lo yiyeh od mabul l'shachet haAreytz.
  by the waters of a flood neither shall there be anymore a flood to destroy the Earth.

• 12:Va'yomer Elokim zot ot-haB'rit asher-ani noteyn beyni u'veyneykhem u'veyn
  And said G-d this is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and
  kol-nefesh chaiya asher eetkhem l'dorot olam.
  every creature living that is with you for generations everlasting.

• 13:Et-qashti natatei be'aanan v'haita l'ot b'rit beyni u'veyn haAretz.
  My bow I do set in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth.

As you can see, it can therefore be emperically stated that this covenant was given to all persons (and with your seed after you,) for all time, (for generations everlasting).

The covenant is an bi-lateral agreement, an action for an action. We know this because earlier in perek 18 (strangely enough 18=Chai - "Life") Hashem tells Noach that He is going to make a covenant with him, but he is to build the ark and gather the animals into it thus demonstrating the covenant is a bi-lateral agreement.

Gathering and preserving lives was not the only condition of this convenant however. After the flood is over and Noach and his family have safely emerged from the ark. Hashem then gives Noach the rainbow, the symbol or instruction of how he is to live. This symbol is, in itself, a promise of life, because declared to Noach is Hashem's condition of the covenant: That He would no longer destroy all flesh through the waters of the flood.

Upon reflection one can see the beautiful parallel between the rainbow as a symbol of life and the Torah, also a symbol of life, both containing instructions for a holy life.

The Rainbow contained instructions??

Our Sages teach us that it is no coincidence that a Rainbow is made up of seven detectable colors, (Scientific evidence is supported of this fact in Lynch, David K. and Livingston, William, Color and Light in Nature Cambridge University Press, 1995: who state that a rainbow is made up of seven colors - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet). Without going into the Jewish mystical associations of these colors to the laws, it is the basic instruction found in the mishna that outlines where these laws are found in the Torah.

One might argue that the Torah was not received at the time of Noach and therefore any laws decreed in the Torah later could not have been applicable to Noach and his family.

This would both be correct and incorrect. While it is factual that the Torah was not formally received by B'nei Yisroel before Mattan Torah b'Har Sinai, (The giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai), it is NOT true that the Torah wasn't with mankind. For proof of this allow me to cite Scripture again --

Bereshis (Gen.) 26:5 says:
"because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws" -RSV.

Althought this translation is certainly adequate, a look at the actual Hebrew will elucidate my point better:

• "Ekeiv Asher shama Avraham b'koli va'yishmor mishmarti mitzvotai chukotai v'torotai"
  Because obeyed Abraham My voice, and observed My safeguards, My commandments, My decrees, and My Torahs.

A sidenote: This is also a Jewish proof-text to validate the authority of the Oral Torah.

So therefore it was possible for Noach to have knowledge of the specific laws alluded to in Hashem's Rainbow banner.

Valid, you mentioned that there were a few things that did not fit with you in regards to these laws. So before I ask why let's explicate what these laws are and who they are actually for.

The Seven Noachide laws are actually more like seven catagories of laws, for within each law we find sub-laws or specific commandments which deal with the same subject matter. This is no different that Torah law, (because Noachide law IS Torah law - they both originate from the same place) as we often find a commandment given generally, then more specifically. In reviewing the Noachide laws (those Torah laws which apply to the Ger, or stranger amonst B'nei Yisroel) we can actually count upwards to 66 different laws, (according to the Rambam). The seven are simply the starting point (*). So let me list the seven basic laws:

• Prohibition of Idolatry.

• Prohibition of Blasphemy.

• Prohibition of Murder.

• Prohibition of Theft.

• Prohibition of Illicit relations.

• Prohibition of Eating live meat.

• Prohibition of failing to establish courts of Justice.

These basic laws are universal laws and they represent the minimal observance one can assume in a loving relationship with HaKodesh Baruch Hu. Although by name they represent a group of mitzvot called the Noachide Laws and are directed, as such, to the Gentile. These same mitzvos are part of the Taryag, (The 613 commandments) that a Jew is obligated to fulfill under Torah law.

So now my question Vaild. In which way do you have a problem with any one of these basic laws. I certainly can't imagine that you would want to violate these mitzvos in any way, and I don't imagine that they interfere in anyway with your daily life.

Adherence to this moral code guarantees harmony among ourselves, the rest of creation and with Hashem. Perhaps it is the fact that there is a division that upsets you. Many have the contention that The full Torah law is as incumbant upon the Gentile as it is to the Jew, however this is not true. We can prove this by going to scripture. There are some mitzvos that are prohibited from anyone BUT the Jew, and while this means that non-Jews are not allowed to perform this certain Torah Mitzva, it does NOT mean that Torah is not for the Gentile as well. I have demonstrated that Torah law, (i.e., those laws which make up the basic Noachide laws) apply directly to all people - Jew and Gentile. So it can be said with authority that the Gentile has provisions made for him/her in Torah just as the Jew does. Now, I know that there will be many reading this who will want me to prove the fact that there exist certain mitzvos for the Jew only. Some have even quoted the ending portion of this proof-text as proof that there is only one law for both Jew and Gentile and thus there is no distinction between either in Torah. This is a pre-text, it is no different than the intellectual extortion against an ignorant person by an individual trying to make an unscriptural point by citing pretexts of Scripture. When the entire portion is taken in its entirety the meaning becomes lucid. Allow me to demonstrate.

Sh'mos (Ex.) 12:43-49 says:

And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it; but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No sojourner or hired servant may eat of it. In one house shall it be eaten; you shall not carry forth any of the flesh outside the house; and you shall not break a bone of it. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." -RSV​

What is being said here is that the Passover is exclusively to be celebrated by the Jew. This is a distinctly Jewish mitzvah. By Hashem's own words, He declares that a non-Jew is not permitted to observe it by saying that no sojourner or hired servant may eat of it. The passage continues and says that if a sojourner or stranger would desire to keep the passover, then a proper conversion must be performed. G-d tells us that after the stranger has been converted, (through circumcision) he is no longer to be considered a stranger or a sojourner. Hashem says that he is now to be as a native of the land. Hashem reminds us again at the end of the passage that no uncircumcised persion shall eat of it. The fact that there shall be one law for the native and the stranger who sojourns among you, is another way of saying that Torah's laws are binding no matter who you are. Torah is Toras haEmes, The Torah of Truth. The laws in the Torah are immutable both for the Jew and the Gentile. And while it may be true that there are certain mitzvos for the Jew and certain mitzvos for the Gentile, the fact remains that all mitzvos come under the authority of the Torah.

Before I end this post I want to address my footnote marker above. In the book of Acts, the council of Jerusalem agreed upon four laws for the convert. Some say that these laws are different from the Noachide laws. I believe that they are not. I believe that the reason only four were given is because they were the easiest to understand of the seven. The laws given to new converts by the Jerusalem council could be commonly understood, other more difficult laws, such as establishing a court of law were reserved for later instruction. These four noachide laws were only the beginning however. They reasoned that these new converts will be in the synagogues, hearing the Laws of Moshe Rabbeinu and will therefore be learning and growing.

I have had the honor of having people come to my congregation telling me that the law wasn't applicable to them. That they had grace and therefore the Law of Moses was dead for them. Each week as I teach from the Bimah, the current weeks parasha, I watch people turn. I see hearts change. People who were certain that they understood how to serve G-d, soon realize that through Torah observance, (Noachide and the full Taryag) they establish a deeper relationship with Hashem.

Valid, I suppose I could have answered you question must quicker, but I felt that it was time for a real teaching on these highly controversial laws. I know that the Orthodox Jewish community has a program in action using these Noachide Laws. But I ask you all to consider them on their own merits. Ask yourself, what is so terrible about abstaining from Idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, Adultery, etc. Wouldn't it make your relationship stronger if you were to follow Hashem according to his own desires.

All the best,
Rabbi Cohen

 

[feus]

Ok, I have to leave in about twenty minutes so this will be short:

If these noahide laws are all a gentile has to follow, then what is the point of going deeper and observing the Torah? Rabbi Cohen says sanctification results from it, but what is sanctification really?

I guess what I'm really asking is: why? Why shouldn't I covet? Why shouldn't I lie whenever I feel like it? Why should I believe in this god at all, and not curse all religions and become an atheist like my friend Kate? Or, why shouldn't I take a slightly different path and still curse all religions, but retain a belief in a "higher power", like my dad?

I'm sorry, I guess I'm not being very thankful today, but I'm really honestly having problems right now, and I hate to take it out on you, but I hardly have anywhere else to ask.

DaTsar: I will read your posts when I get back, really I will, and I do have a lot of questions, but they will have to wait because I do have to leave. But I look forward to reading it.

-feus

 

[Rabbi Cohen]

BS"D

Ok, I have to leave in about twenty minutes so this will be short:

If these noahide laws are all a gentile has to follow, then what is the point of going deeper and observing the Torah? Rabbi Cohen says sanctification results from it, but what is sanctification really?

I guess what I'm really asking is: why? Why shouldn't I covet? Why shouldn't I lie whenever I feel like it? Why should I believe in this god at all, and not curse all religions and become an atheist like my friend Kate? Or, why shouldn't I take a slightly different path and still curse all religions, but retain a belief in a "higher power", like my dad?

I'm sorry, I guess I'm not being very thankful today, but I'm really honestly having problems right now, and I hate to take it out on you, but I hardly have anywhere else to ask...

Shalom Feus,

I, also do not have much time so this will be short, Im Yirtze Hashem (G-d Willing), I will be able to expound on it a little later.

First of all let me say that I hope your day goes better for you. Now to answer your questions.

Sanctification means to set apart for holy use, or to consecrate, to purify or to make holy. But what I am referring here to is it's definition to produce a spiritual blessing, which sound like you could use one about now.

Your main question is why. Let me tell you why.

Like I said in my substantially longer post, the Noachide laws are just starting points. The are general catagories which contain many more laws within them. You mentioned coveting and lying and why you should not feel free to engage in them. First let me ask you if you know the difference between ethics and legal ordinances? I am not being facetious, some people really don't know. Let me give you a modern-day example. Only until recently human-cloning wasn't illegal, does this mean that it was ethical until recently as well? No, the world pretty much agrees that human-cloning has always been unethical. However, now that there are laws prohibitting it, the ethics of human cloning have become a minor thing. This is not unlike the Noachide laws. Gentiles, just as Jews, have the ability to tell what is right and what is wrong. If you wish to lie to someone or to covet something of theirs, you are transgressing an ethical boundary. It just so happens that you would also violate several Noachide laws. According the the Rambam, under the Prohibition of Theft commandment, you are prohibitted from coveting (Negative commandment #265 and #266), you are also prohibitted from lying (negative commandment #271). Cursing all other religions isn't really addressed, however becoming an atheist is. Under the Prohibition of Blasphemy, positive mitzvah #1 instructs us to acknowledge the existence of G-d. Positive mitzvah #4 says to fear Him, Negative mitzvah #60 says to you may not blaspheme Him, and Positive miztvah #5 intructs you to pray to Him.

Finally you ask...

why shouldn't I take a slightly different path and still curse all religions, but retain a belief in a "higher power", like my dad?

This would be in violation to the Prohibition of Idolatry. According to this catagory of mitzvos, you are prohibitted against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except Hashem - (Negative mitzvah #1).

You say,

If these noahide laws are all a gentile has to follow, then what is the point of going deeper and observing the Torah?

As if the Noachide laws were a simple thing. What you do not realize, and not you alone - MANY do not realize this, is that there are deeper levels of observance within the main catagories of the seven. In fact, as I mentioned before the Noachide laws can be counted up to approximately 66 separate mitzvos. 66 of the 613 biblical commandments which are generally applicable in these post-temple times is nearly 1 in 4 of the complete Torah law. Observing the Noachide law IS going deeper and observing the Torah - Many Jews would be blessed to be able to do half this.

I hope your Thanksgiving day is a blessing and that you are blessed with peace!

Kol Tuv,
Rabbi Cohen