Hi... I have a question about the Jews...

[cajunhillbilly]

As I recall, a few of the Early Church Fathers claimed that the Church had replaced Israel.

Not so much replaced Israel, but since Jesus was the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel, then we. the new people of God, are the continuation of Israel. I hate people who are dispensational talking about replacement theology. There is no such view and never was. We have to read Scripture covenantally and in so doing we come to see that the peopel of Israel have always been the faithful remanant and that in Christ we inheret ALL the promises to Israel. For He is Israel, and in Him we are too.

 

[Anoetos]

Not so much replaced Israel, but since Jesus was the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel, then we. the new people of God, are the continuation of Israel. I hate people who are dispensational talking about replacement theology. There is no such view and never was. We have to read Scripture covenantally and in so doing we come to see that the peopel of Israel have always been the faithful remanant and that in Christ we inheret ALL the promises to Israel. For He is Israel, and in Him we are too.

This bogeyman of "replacement theology" pops up often here at CF. I have tried many times to disabuse people of the idea. I do not know that I have ever been successful in getting them to understand just what you have said here. But this tells me that they are not interested in being corrected.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

This bogeyman of "replacement theology" pops up often here at CF. I have tried many times to disabuse people of the idea. I do not know that I have ever been successful in getting them to understand just what you have said here. But this tells me that they are not interested in being corrected.

No they aren't. We all tend to be so sure of ourselves sometimes that we are correct, that it is hard to maintain a teachable spirit. We need to all be humble and teachable. But you are correct. I live in the Dallas area, and it is hard to explain the historic view of the church and not be accused of "replacement theology", whatever that is. The first time I met a Dallas seminary grad he all but called me a heretic. What? If so I am in good company- Calvin, Luther, Aquinas, Augustine, Warfield, the Hodges, etc. Oh well.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

There is a sense in which Presbyterians who are partial preterists (e.g., Keith Mathison, Kenneth Gentry, David Chilton, Gary DeMar) believe that Israel "had its chance" and was judged in A.D. 70 for its rejection of Christ. But at no point do any of them imply that the Jews are no longer the "chosen people" or that they should not be evangelized. Quite the opposite--many partial preterists (especially the ones I named) are postmillennial and believe that prior to the Second Coming there will be a widespread acceptance of the Gospel among the Jews.

There are also some Presbyterians, called Kinists, who oppose interracial marriage and argue that the Bible supports different races sticking to themselves; but they have never produced a reputable scholar (they only quote things that the Southern Presbyterian R. L. Dabney said about race), they are a small minority, and to my knowledge the Jews have never been a special target of their rhetoric.

Those are the only elements of Presbyterian thought that I'm aware of that bear any resemblance to what the original post is describing, and even then, the resemblance is superficial.

 

[Anoetos]

Its funny you should mention the kinists. I actually know some of them.

Anyhow, to put it very simply, when a Dispensationalist says "Replacement Theology" he means "Covenant Theology".

Hey, maybe we should start calling them "Soteriological Modalists" since the common caricature of their view is that God uses different means to save people under different economies. Of course, the difference would be that there have actually been important leaders in their movement who believe exactly this heresy.

 

[Anoetos]

Or maybe "Judaeolatry"

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I can't vouch for what steps the PCA has taken, but I wish the OPC would formally address Kinism before it starts to gain too much ground. Most OPs don't even seem to be aware that it exists.

"Soteriological Modalism" might be over people's heads. The advantage of "replacement theology" as a slur is that it's conceptually simple enough for Hal Lindsay to hawk it over the boob tube. I like "Judaeolatry," but the slur needs to reflect the obsession with current events. "Israolatry" has a better ring to it, I think.

 

[Clare73]

Some other things to be considered.

Unbelieving Israel is not the Church. The kingdom of God was taken away from unbelieving Israel (Mt 21:43) and given to the Church of believing Gentiles and Jews who would produce its fruit.

Unbelieving Israel are not the people of God. The only people of God are those who believe in Jesus the Christ.

Unbelieving Israel is on the same footing as all unbelievers--salvation is only by faith in Jesus the Christ.

And believing Gentiles are on the same footing as was believing Israel in the OT, God's chosen people and the seed of Abraham.

None of this should be new, however.

 

[christianmomof3]

Hey guys,

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

I'm doing a study on world religions and need to know what does your religion feel about the Jews... are they still the chosen people... or do Christians and Christianity replace them?

thanks!!

wow, this is an old thread.
But, the Jews are still God's chosen people. He did not unchose them or reject them. Just because He chose the Jews does not mean that He could not also chose other peoples at a later time. Like today, I chose a mango out of the fruit bowl. Tomorrow, I may choose an apple out of the fruit bowl. Both are chosen, and I did not reject the mango and replace it with the apple.

 

[Anoetos]

wow, this is an old thread.
But, the Jews are still God's chosen people. He did not unchose them or reject them. Just because He chose the Jews does not mean that He could not also chose other peoples at a later time. Like today, I chose a mango out of the fruit bowl. Tomorrow, I may choose an apple out of the fruit bowl. Both are chosen, and I did not reject the mango and replace it with the apple.

God is not an adulterer. He has only one bride, only one people.

 

[Anoetos]

Some other things to be considered.

Unbelieving Israel is not the Church. The kingdom of God was taken away from unbelieving Israel (Mt 21:43) and given to the Church of believing Gentiles and Jews who would produce its fruit.

Unbelieving Israel are not the people of God. The only people of God are those who believe in Jesus the Christ.

Unbelieving Israel is on the same footing as all unbelievers--salvation is only by faith in Jesus the Christ.

And believing Gentiles are on the same footing as was believing Israel in the OT, God's chosen people and the seed of Abraham.

None of this should be new, however.

This

 

[Clare73]

Are we taking our views from the Messiah's (Heb 1:1-3) NT revelation, because Messiah's NT revelation is pretty clear that only those who believe in the Promise (Jesus Christ) are the people of God.

That excludes all who do not believe in Jesus the Christ, including unbelieving Israel.

I think we have to be careful how we throw around the word (chosen). Pharoah was also chosen, so it's not necessarily an indication of God's favor. However, in the sense it is used of Israel, it is meant of God's favor.

Paul addresses God's rejection of unbelieving Israel in relation to his favor of them for the patriarchal fathers's sakes. He shows that God is keeping his promises, for the sake of the fathers, in a remnant of them, rather than casting all of them off for rejecting their Messiah.

But Messiah's NT revelation is clear that only those who believe in Jesus the Christ (the Promise) are the people of God, Jews and Gentiles alike.
There is no favor with God outside Jesus the Christ, in whom believers are the seed of Abraham and heir to the promises to Abraham.

The Church doesn't replace believing Israel as the people of God, the Church is the continuation of believing Israel as the people of God, which now incorporates all who believe in Jesus the Christ.

Some who subscribe to Messianic Judaism have a problem with Messiah's NT revelation (Heb 1:1-3) in this regard.

 

[Clare73]

This

You were going to say?

 

[Anoetos]

You were going to say?

Just that you're right.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I read a Catholic book recently- The Rapture Trap- and they too believe the church to be the continuation of Israel. The view that there are two different people of God is actually a minority view in Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox circles and is a very recent innovation.

 

[Anoetos]

They endorse a traditional, trinitarian understanding of God which includes the belief that Jesus is divine:

JfJ Statement of Faith