Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Clare73]

So are you saying that there was no personal unrighteousness in Cain that caused him to slay Abel?

Are we talking about Cain's imputed guilt of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19) which condemns him to death, or about Cain's sinful action (due to his fallen nature) which also condemns him to death (Ro 6:23)?

 

[fhansen]

Are we talking about Cain's imputed guilt of Adam (Ro 5:17, 18-19) which condemns him to death, or about Cain's sinful action (due to his fallen nature) which also condemns him to death (Ro 6:23)?

I'm asking how Cain became a sinner by Adam's sin.

 

[Clare73]

And you're still not answering the question about Eze 18:20. You apparently agree that Adam's offspring were held accountable/guilty for a sin they didn't commit:

I'm asking how Cain became a sinner by Adam's sin.

Cain's fallen nature causes him to sin, which fallen nature is the result of Adam's sin.
Cain (and all mankind) is also guilty of Adam's sin; i.e., a sinner, by Adam's sin being imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

There is incurrence, inheritance, and imputation.

Man did not incur Adam's sin/guilt, and man does not inherit Adam's sin/guilt, for sin/guilt is not inherited (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (accounted, charged) to man by God (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

 

[fhansen]

Cain's fallen nature causes him to sin, which fallen nature is the result of Adam's sin.

Ok, I think this is where we may come to some agreement, or "agreeance", as some celebrities apparently put it. That fallen nature is unrighteous, not just a declaration of unrighteousness, and that "falleness", that unrighteousness, is the cause of the sin we observe every day and may participate in to one degree or another.

 

[Abraham1st]

We have no basis for Scriptural discussion.

That is correct, and fhanson also has no basis to discuss with you, in your same declaration, as fhanson also does not agree to your Scriptural explanations.

 

[Abraham1st]

Cain's fallen nature causes him to sin, which fallen nature is the result of Adam's sin.
Cain (and all mankind) is also guilty of Adam's sin; i.e., a sinner, by Adam's sin being imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

There is incurrence, inheritance, and imputation.

Man did not incur Adam's sin/guilt, and man does not inherit Adam's sin/guilt, for sin/guilt is not inherited (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (accounted, charged) to man by God (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

Cain is of the flesh, even is of the wicked one.


1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


That is not imputation, that is belonging with wickedness, as stated.


Sin is not inherited from father to son, but what is inherited is offences, when sin came into the world, and al men have took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, men do evil.

Adam is not alone in offence, all men sinned/offended, that is what is passed onto men, not a title, but actual deeds, actions, as seen in Cain especially. That is why we see the very opposite to Cain, in Christ, of laying HIs life down for us. ( the opposite to the wicked one)

 

[Abraham1st]

Ok, I think this is where we may come to some agreement, or "agreeance", as some celebrities apparently put it. That fallen nature is unrighteous, not just a declaration of unrighteousness, and that "falleness", that unrighteousness, is the cause of the sin we observe every day and may participate in to one degree or another.

fhansen, agreement comes altogether, or not at all, a Christian chat forum cant be just to find some agreement, but to find all truth or none of it, see also what i just replied in the last two replies to clare73, or dont see it.


John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen, agreement comes altogether, or not at all, a Christian chat forum cant be just to find some agreement, but to find all truth or none of it, see also what i just replied in the last two replies to clare73, or dont see it.


John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ok? And yet common ground is always a good thing-and should be appreciated and pursued wherever it may be found.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, I think this is where we may come to some agreement, or "agreeance", as some celebrities apparently put it. That fallen nature is unrighteous, not just a declaration of unrighteousness, and that "falleness", that unrighteousness, is the cause of the sin we observe every day and may participate in to one degree or another.

Cain (and all mankind) is also guilty of Adam's sin; i.e., a sinner, by Adam's sin being imputed (accounted, charged) to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

There is incurrence, inheritance, and imputation.

Man did not incur Adam's sin/guilt, and man does not inherit Adam's sin/guilt, for sin/guilt is not inherited (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (accounted, charged) to man by God (Ro 5:17, 18-19), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for
Christ's righteousness being imputed to man by God (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[fhansen]

Cain (and all mankind) is also guilty of Adam's sin; i.e., a sinner, by Adam's sin being imputed (accounted, charged) to all mankind (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

There is incurrence, inheritance, and imputation.

Man did not incur Adam's sin/guilt, and man does not inherit Adam's sin/guilt, for sin/guilt is not inherited (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin/guilt is imputed (accounted, charged) to man by God (Ro 5:17, 18-19), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for
Christ's righteousness being imputed to man by God (Ro 5:18-19).

Okay, so what does it mean to have a fallen nature? And can that nature affect our behavior, regarding righteousness?

 

[Clare73]

Cain is of the flesh, even is of the wicked one.
1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
That is not imputation, that is belonging with wickedness, as stated.
Sin is not inherited from father to son, but what is inherited is offences,

Neither sin, guilt nor "offenses" are inherited (Eze 18:20).
Only the fallen nature, inclined to sin, is inherited.

 

[Clare73]

Okay, so what does it mean to have a fallen nature?

An unregenerate fallen nature is inclined to sin, unable to be sinless and, therefore, a slave to sin (Jn 8:34), slaves are not free.

And can that nature affect our behavior, regarding righteousness?

Yes, regarding imparted righteousness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

No, regarding imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:14, 18-19) through the gift of faith (Php 1:29) and justification (Ro 4:25, 5:18,
declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of remission of sin).

 

[Clare73]

That is correct, and fhanson also has no basis to discuss with you, in your same declaration, as fhanson also does not agree to your Scriptural explanations.

I await Biblical demonstration of the personal assertions of both of you. . .

 

[fhansen]

An unregenerate fallen nature is inclined to sin, unable to be sinless and, therefore, a slave to sin (Jn 8:34), slaves are not free.

Yes, regarding imparted righteousness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

No, regarding imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:14, 18-19) through the gift of faith (Php 1:29) and justification (Ro 4:25, 5:18,
declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of remission of sin).

Ok, The question is pretty straightforward. Does this fallen nature, itself, contribute to unrighteousness in man, with sin resulting? Did man lose something at the Fall that he possessed prior to it? Did the Fall, in some manner, make man unrighteous?