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You should be reading the story of creation. Because my comment about duplicity was in regard to Adam. In regard to Pharaoh, the narrative we have is that both God and Pharaoh hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both/andSo you deny the word of God written (Ex 4:21, Ro 9:17-18) for the sake of your human view?
Not a good look, right?
Check out Isa 55:8-9.
Which does not alter the word of God that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he would disobey and not let the people go.In regard to Pharaoh, the narrative we have is that both God and Pharaoh hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both/and
Which does not alter the word of God that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he would disobey and not let the people go.
Which you say is duplicitous. . .and which charge of "duplicity" God addresses in Isa 55:8-9.
Sounds more than a bit duplicitous regarding His command that He gave to Adam
Ok! Gotcha!I do not.
So duplicity is a matter of degree?fhansen said:
Sounds more than a bit duplicitous regarding His command that He gave to Adam.
In relation to posts #51, #63, where you present degrees of dupicitiousness.Not that I know of. Why do you ask? Duplicity means double-minded, deceitful, saying one thing but doing another, etc.
If God commanded Adam not dot do something, not to sin, and then caused Adam to do it, that would be an instance of duplicity. Nothing about degrees there.In relation to posts #51, #63.
And is God's decision, before he gave the command (Ex 4:21), to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he could not obey God's command duplicitous?Yes, if God commanded Adam not dot do something, not to sin, and then caused Adam to do it, that would be an instance of duplicity.
No, God didn’t command Pharoah to let the people go. He simply exploited Pharaoh's already selfish and hard heart for His greater purposes.And is God duplicitous in hardening Pharoah's heart so that (Ex 4:21) he could not obey God's command?
So, Moses was lying in Ex 5:1 and Ex 7:16?No, God didn’t command Pharoah to let the people go. He simply exploited Pharaoh's already selfish and hard heart for His greater purposes.
Of course not. But we’re talking apples and oranges here. Adam was still in direct communication with God, who gave him a direct command. Pharoah, who didn’t know or believe in God to begin with, was just hearing from some other guy, a mere human.So, Moses was lying in Ex 5:1 and Ex 7:16?
I'm talking what you call duplicitous, and God's "duplicitousness" in commanding Pharaoh to obey what God had hardened his heart against so that he could not obey. . .which you call duplicitous.Of course not. But we’re talking apples and oranges here. Adam was still in direct communication with God, who gave him a direct command. Pharoah, who didn’t know or believe in God to begin with, was just hearing from some other guy, a mere human.
That's the question. And to believe that everyone who ever heard those words, which are only meant as words of encouragement and exhortation to begin with, and applied them to themselves, whether they be the first audience who heard them or any of the rest of us down through the centuries, was/is necessarily saved woud not be reasonable, For that matter, the bible speaks of those who thought they were one of God's but were not, and others who didn't know they were His but were.Who is Pail talking about? Who is us?
And we'll know for certain who persevered-who apparently had this "saving faith"- at the end.All with saving faith will persevere.
If we love, we'll show the fruit of that love-and you know far better than I if you have it. If so, more power to you; you're doing God's will.All that have saving faith have love so I don’t know what you are arguing about.
You seem to accept the carrots and reject any sticks. To the extent that we love, then we will have no problem forgiving others. But with faith and without love we are nothing, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. Jesus didn't say those words in Matt 6 just to fill in space. Again, if you love, if you return the love and mercy that's been shown to you, then you're doing God's will. This begins with faith in Him. His purpose is to produce something in us, something better than He began with, something like Himself, something within whom real truth and justice and righteousness reign, rather than simply to ignore injustice now and allow us to remain in our sins as long as we...believe.The Bible is clear that God pardons sin by His grace based on Christ’s work on the cross alone, not on man’s actions. This is part of our daily prayers asking for forgiveness for our daily sins so Jesus is not referring to God’s initial act of forgiveness (reconciliation) that we experienced when we first believed the Gospel. We pray this prayer daily and daily we forget some of our sins including forgiving someone that did us wrong. God does not go back in His promises.
I’m disappointed that you so easily went askew here. My question to you was who was us and all you had to do was look at who is Paul taking to. Here let’s look.That's the question. And to believe that everyone who ever heard those words, which are only meant as words of encouragement and exhortation to begin with, and applied them to themselves, whether they be the first audience who heard them or any of the rest of us down through the centuries, was/is necessarily saved woud not be reasonable, For that matter, the bible speaks of those who thought they were one of God's but were not, and others who didn't know they were His but were.
Nah. Thats the problem with your church’s faith plus works doctrines. You don’t get to enjoy our Lords rest. Haven’t you heard that His yoke is comfortable and His burden is light?And we'll know for certain who persevered-who apparently had this "saving faith"- at the end.
We do love naturally. Do you love naturally brother? Or do you have to force yourself to love?If we love, we'll show the fruit of that love-and you know far better than I if you have it. If so, more power to you; you're doing God's will.
You seem to accept the carrots and reject any sticks. To the extent that we love, then we will have no problem forgiving others. But with faith and without love we are nothing, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. Jesus didn't say those words in Matt 6 just to fill in space. Again, if you love, if you return the love and mercy that's been shown to you, then you're doing God's will. This begins with faith in Him. His purpose is to produce something in us, something better than He began with, something like Himself, something within whom real truth and justice and righteousness reign, rather than simply to ignore injustice now and allow us to remain in our sins as long as we...believe.
I doubt you’ll find in any of the early church teachings: ECFs (with the possible exception of Origen), EO, Catholic, etc anything like the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. It’s quite novel all in all. The early churches understood that man’s will, his cooperation, continues to play its role throughout one’s life in God’s work of salvation.
It's in Jude, that's where the concept comes from.I doubt you’ll find in any of the early church teachings: ECFs (with the possible exception of Origen), EO, Catholic, etc anything like the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.
Yes! It's our job to remain in Him, to do our part in staying connected to the Vine, picking up our cross ansd following daily. From there, good fruit will be produced. If not, then sumpthin's wrong with that connection. Either way, God's not in the business of produing Christian automatons. We must respond to His grace-and continue to do so.It's in Jude, that's where the concept comes from.
The question emerges if "He" is "not able" to "keep us from falling" who then can be saved?
I only posted this because it was claimed that it was not in early church teachings, but it was in the scripture.
That being said, I don't believe that one cannot litigate their way into heaven, or force God to do anything based on a human's limited understanding of the bible.
The core misunderstanding of salvation in many of these debates is a transformed life. When one is saved, they are changed inside. Jesus is indeed able to keep us from falling, if people would just listen to Him instead of people in the church providing justifications to follow Paul instead of Jesus. . . (a dichotomy that shouldn't exist)
Yes, Jesus is able to keep us from falling, and able to completely save us ... but there's something we do also, isn't there? It is our work to trust Him. The righteous afterall live by faith.
Paul knew well that he could not identify any specific person as being delfintivel;y numbered among the elect. In Phil 3 He even said that he had not yet attained to the ressurection but was strivng towards that end.I’m disappointed that you so easily went askew here. My question to you was who was us and all you had to do was look at who is Paul taking to. Here let’s look.
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Ephesians 1:1 NASB2020
His words are directed at the saints who are at Ephesus. The Greek word here is hagios. I‘m sure Paul is not talking about spiritual beings with wings, right?Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, T o the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesusbible.com
Saints- ἅγιος hágios, hag'-ee-os; from ἅγος hágos (an awful thing) (compare G53, H2282); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Look at the definition of hagios. These are morally blameless and consecrated human beings which are those with saving faith.
We think His burden is light. You speak as if it's non-existent. And our's isn't faith plus works of the law. It's faith plus good fruit, works of grace, good works that we were created in Chrsit Jesus to do, that God prepared in advance, works that are done not out of a sense of ovbligation but out of the love that's been poured into our hearts Rom 5:5. "...faith working though love" Gal 5:6Nah. Thats the problem with your church’s faith plus works doctrines. You don’t get to enjoy our Lords rest. Haven’t you heard that His yoke is comfortable and His burden is light?
Depends on what you mean. Often love can be a hard chocie, involving self-sacrifice. And God's after more than just natural love, of course, but after a love that only he can produce in us.We do love naturally. Do you love naturally brother? Or do you have to force yourself to love?
Getting back to the last part of Matt 5 quoted above: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."Do you honestly think that the Paul and the saints who are at Ephesus, who were chosen and already received their inheritance, are going to loose their faith? Do you think that even the saints who are at Ephesus are perfect, love perfectly, forgive perfectly? Do you think that even those with saving faith do not still sin? No one, and I mean no one, in this world, even those with saving faith, are perfect.
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