Help with some thoughts...

[gennaoanothen]

So I'm studying quite a bit this last week...

What are your opinions on Islam?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[gennaoanothen]

No human being is trully qualified to judge another. If a God exists we must believe in his/her/it's judgement. If there is a Heaven, one must exist for each and every one of us, otherwise we were not created in his image. Yes/No?

John 12:44-50
Jesus cried and said,He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

 

[packermann]

I have to say that I have some fundamental problems with the "Born again" philosophy. Please bear with me while I explain.


The way it was explained to me in my church back in the 1990's, (I haven't attended a Baptist church since 1997ish.) was that once you accept Jesus in your heart you are forgiven for everything you've ever done or ever will do. This is a tough pill for me to swallow because I see mass murderers, child rapists, truly evil people "get religion" and suddenly assume everything is on the level with God. Now I'm not saying that God isn't all forgiving, but surely this cannot be all one has to do to be forgiven.

I believe that you must also "do" good works and be generally "good" to be blessed by God. Not that you can "buy" your way into heaven with these good works either, but you can't just say "I accept Jesus" and then suddenly everything is OK. I think you have to put action behind your words. Too many times in the church did I see the ugly "double faced" nature of many of it's congregate. Folks would be one way on Sunday and Weds nights but the other 5 days of the week they were "worldly" and someone else.

I, too, was a Baptist - for 12 years. I was even a minister. I was plagued by the same doubts you are experiencing. I finally left Evangelicalism and went back to the Catholic Church, from where I was raised.

The Catholic Church teaches that you must faith AND works. When it says works, it means works of love, not that you can buy your way into heaven.

The CC distinguishes between grave sin and venial sin. Grave sins are like child molesting, murder, adultery. If you commit this sin, you are no longer under the grace of God, if you committed them deliberately and with fully knowledge of the gravity of these sins.

Another issue I have is with the overwhelming majority of hate that comes from Baptist churches. (Sorry I keep mentioning Baptist because that is really all I know.) Too many sermons were about how babies in Africa were doomed to hell fire just because they didn't know Jesus Christ. How Buddhists and Jews, Islamic and Pagans, were all doomed to hell no matter how "good" their moral character and behaviors were.

That is anothing thing I like about the Catholic Church. It teaches the "invincibility of ignorance". Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, or Pagans can go to heaven providing that they have intellectual problems with Christianity and are living up to the light that has been given them. Mind you, only God can judge their hearts. A person may say that he has intellectual problems with Christianity, but it may really be a moral problem. We still preach Christ, because Christ is God's normal way to salvation. But we cannot limit God's mercy.

Although the Catholic Church teaches that it is the only true church, it does not teach that only Catholics are Christians. It accepts anyone who was baptised as a Christian. And although the Catholic Church teaches that outside the Church there is no salvation, it also teaches that sincere Protestants, Muslims, Jew, Mormons are implicitly in the Church and have the hope of eternal life provided they continue in good works of love.

I would like to encourage you to go to catholic.com to investigate.

 

[gennaoanothen]

I was a catholic for about 6 months, they told me I received more sacraments at one time than most in the usa ever would.
They paraded several of us new converts in front of a board of priests, to be introduced.
I quit that day. in question and answer time I said I believed the Bible was the Word of God, a young priest said oh!!! so you believe you can lay hands on the sick and they will get well. I said if the Bible says it, yes I do . and got up and walked out.
That is one of my ministries today, I pray for the sick and God heals them, alot of them. Why God has healed me several times
reading your post, that is alot of compromising, you can get to heaven without Jesus.
I am not anti catholic, but it sure looks like you all are really departing from the Word.
In the 1500's my 11th great grandfather dr. Rowland Taylor and 11th great grand uncle William Tyndale were martyred by the catholics as heretics, so now you say the catholic church believes all roads lead to God? wow!!!

 

[packermann]

I was a catholic for about 6 months, they told me I received more sacraments at one time than most in the usa ever would.
They paraded several of us new converts in front of a board of priests, to be introduced.
I quit that day. in question and answer time I said I believed the Bible was the Word of God, a young priest said oh!!! so you believe you can lay hands on the sick and they will get well. I said if the Bible says it, yes I do
reading your post, that is alot of compromising, you can get to heaven without Jesus.
I am not anti catholic, but it sure looks like you all are really departing from the Word.
In the 1500's my 11th great grandfather dr. Rowland Taylor and 11th great grand uncle William Tyndale were martyred by the catholics as heretics, so now you say the catholic church believes all roads lead to God? wow!!!

This is not quite what the CC teaches. The CC teaches that there is only only way to heaven - Jesus Christ. BUT the CC recognizes that there are non-Christians who are sincerely ignorant of the claims of Christ. Of these people, the CC teaches that God COULD have mercy.

Jesus said in Matthew 5 "Do not judge, lest you be judge". The CC takes this admonition from our Lord very seriously. Although the CC defines what is objectively a mortal sin (and rejecting Christ would be a mortal sin), it does not judge anyone to have gone to hell. There is an objective element and a subjective element to culpability. Jesus Himself taught this Himself when He said that he who sins deliberately would receive many whippings but he who sins in ignorance will receive only a few whippings.

Also, there were martyrs on both sides in the 1500's. There were Catholic martyrs such as John Fisher, Thomas More, Margarett Clitherow, and Edmund Campion. It was hard time to live - for both Protestants and Catholics.

 

[gennaoanothen]

and not to turn this into a debate, but to answer the OP, on my opinions of islam, my opinion does not matter, what matters is what the Word of God and Jesus says. I choose to believe the Words of Jesus, and the Word of God, what Jesus spoke is the Word of God, because he spoke what the Father told Him to speak. John 12th chapter For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

Acts 4th chapter

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3rd chapter
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I am not judging, my friend, I am speaking the truth.

2 Corinthians 5th chapter
and all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[heymikey80]

So I'm studying quite a bit this last week...

What are your opinions on Islam?

Mmm, Islam incorporates a different view of God as impersonal and expecting your submission to His requirements as a non-negotiable.

It does bear a lot of resemblance to other regular legalistic religions -- not necessarily to the caricature of "legalism" that tends to get preached around, but the basic, "Love me, do this, get reward" construction of human religion.

I guess I have a counterquestion as to how you asked this point. What do you see as the difference Christ made in human religion? To me it's that the grace of forgiveness is changed from something that's "stuff God sometimes accedes to" to, "the rules changed". We live our lives by grace from start to finish.

Even Christian churches often neglect this on the "finishing" side.

Maybe a short blurb from this material might help?

http://www.whm.org/grow/sonship

The "introduction" may help describe what I mean.

 

[jellybean99]

Merry Christmas everyone. With the Lord on my mind this morning more so than ever, I've found myself questioning my path for the last 15 years of my life.
I had tried posting this very post on another Christian forum but they banned my account without even given me a response. I'm hoping that I'm not turned away here so coldly.
I was baptized back in 1991 and said the acceptance prayer back during that time with the pastor of the church I was attending (Baptist.) My father was also a Baptist preacher way back before I was even born.
I have to say that I have some fundamental problems with the "Born again" philosophy. Please bear with me while I explain.
The way it was explained to me in my church back in the 1990's, (I haven't attended a Baptist church since 1997ish.) was that once you accept Jesus in your heart you are forgiven for everything you've ever done or ever will do. This is a tough pill for me to swallow because I see mass murderers, child rapists, truly evil people "get religion" and suddenly assume everything is on the level with God. Now I'm not saying that God isn't all forgiving, but surely this cannot be all one has to do to be forgiven.
I believe that you must also "do" good works and be generally "good" to be blessed by God. Not that you can "buy" your way into heaven with these good works either, but you can't just say "I accept Jesus" and then suddenly everything is OK. I think you have to put action behind your words. Too many times in the church did I see the ugly "double faced" nature of many of it's congregate. Folks would be one way on Sunday and Weds nights but the other 5 days of the week they were "worldly" and someone else.
Another issue I have is with the overwhelming majority of hate that comes from Baptist churches. (Sorry I keep mentioning Baptist because that is really all I know.) Too many sermons were about how babies in Africa were doomed to hell fire just because they didn't know Jesus Christ. How Buddhists and Jews, Islamic and Pagans, were all doomed to hell no matter how "good" their moral character and behaviors were.
I like to take Jesus for his word and his message alone. I don't understand how so much hate can be preached with Jesus Christs message was about love.
It is my belief that as so long as you believe in God, or a higher power, that you moral character and actions are "good" that you are already on the path to being saved. I do not believe God cares what name you call upon him by as so long as you call his name.
That is why my heart is conflicted. I've felt this way for 15 years now and I'm just not sure how to sort this out.
Can anyone help me? I really want to get out in my community and get to know like minded others to worship and celebrate with. I just don't know WHERE I belong.
Thank you in advance.

Like you, I was indoctrinated into the Baptist Church and some of my family members went through the "rite of passage" of Baptism and the public confession of one's faith. Every church has some rite of passage (even Calvinists) and somehow entire families come to "know the Lord." halleluya...whatever. A rite of passage may indicate a spiritual rebirth, but not necessarily.

I didn't get baptized because deep-down I knew I hadn't changed. All the invitations made to Jesus went unanswered. I wasn't going to live a lie and bow to peer pressure. As for pointing out the hypocrisy in your church, this passage sums up self-righteous well enough:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14

You have confessed your sins (agreed with God regarding falling short of His Holiness), as have we all. You have begun your road of repentance (turning from the sinful life you led and walking the righteous path).

Have you accepted the PARDON offered to you by Jesus through his perfect sacrifice? While we might suffer a thousand deaths for the things we have done, there is NOTHING we can do to atone for the sins we've committed--like everyone else, we have fallen short of perfection like the tax collector in Luke. No one can even look to Heaven with a sense of our own righteousness. Atonement can only come from the death of an innocent.

Jesus died for YOU, ME and other SINNERS. When you realize this, the piano will fall off your back. It was His life for your life; that's the deal. The deal is sealed when you leave your worthless life on the cross and allow Jesus to live through you by the Holy Spirit. It's that simple; it's that difficult!

When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world.

But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:11-28)

http://www.ccci.org/wij/index.aspx

 

[the.Sheepdog]

Merry Christmas to you also.

Philosophy is of the mind, and I would agree many people do have a head knowledge, or may recite a prayer from there head, but there Spirit (heart) can be far from God.
God is Spirit and we must worship Him in spirit and truth. Being a Baptist I am sure you are familuar with Romans 10:9-10

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

A person that is Born Again has a heart (spirit) faith, and all good works will be "fruit", a fruit because of there heart felt love for Jesus Christ our Lord, and fruit will be there 7 days a week, because they truly believe.

and yes a Christian can fail, but the Lord will bring them back to Him.

Exactly. A friend posted this and I love it:

Here is a prayer from the back of my bible:
Father,
You loved the world so much that You gave Your only begotten Son to die for our sins so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Your Word says we are saved by grace through faith as a gift from You.There is nothing we can do to earn salvation.
I believe and confess with my mouth that Jesus Christ is Your Son the Savior of the world.I believe He died on the cross for me and bore all of my sins,paying the price for them.
I believe in my heart that You raised Jesus from the dead and that He is alive today.
I am a sinner and I am sorry for my sins and I ask You to forgive me.By faith I recieve Jesus Christ now as my Lord and Savior.I believe that I am saved and will spend eternity with You! Thank You,Father.I am so grateful! In Jesus`name,amen.


Now, as a natural result of this great and growing love it just seems natural to WANT to do things for the Lord. It isnt a demand that ensures salvation. "Not of works lest any should boast". But if you are in Love with God and turned on sold out and electrifried! you will desire to reach out to share what charges you up.

So many think that after salvation they must then earn it with works. That is off the mark. God is LOVE not hate. A doctrine of hate is not of Him.


Be of good cheer dear saint. You are right where you need to be to learn or experience whatever it is that God needs for you to find for His purposes.

Rejoice! He loves you and will reorder the universe for your best!

Bill

 

[heron]

What are your opinions on Islam?

Wikipedia had a good history of Islam, which sheds a lot of light on why there are similarities. I think that if I say too much, it will go against forum rules to send a thread in a new direction.

Just keep in mind that there is one earth, and many humans believe there is one Divine Creator. Their perception of Him may differ, and their religious writings can completely contradict each other, but there is still that sense and conviction that He (The Name that is not spoken) is above all creation.

He is above our religiosity.

He is above our traditions.

The act of sending His son to earth to be the payment for our sinfulness -- that is immense grace.

If we miss that gift, we might also miss the sense that we are His children. When caught up in self-condemnation, we are not lifted into effectiveness, and often not into appreciation. Life is good, if we allow God to hit the refresh screen and purify us.