Help with Ex 34:6-8

[Carl Emerson]

Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Does Ezekiel 18 annul this principle???

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

 

[Bobber]

Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

It didn't even apply to people of that day that is in the sense of how some twist this today and call it generational curses. It did mean though that when the nation would come under punishment's it usually meant they were taken into captivity. Of course that included their chidden as well.

 

[Bobber]

Does Ezekiel 18 annul this principle???

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall certainly live. 20 The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer the punishment for the father’s guilt, nor will a father suffer the punishment for the son’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

But that's the way it always was. Again the prior verse you mentioned didn't mean the children were necessarily being punished but it was a natural end result if their parents were taken into captivity ....so were they.

 

[Bob Crowley]

There is a Catholic interpretation here.

Sins of the Father?

For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and f...

www.catholic.com

Essentially "Exodus 20:5-6 is speaking of the consequences of breaking the commandment against false idols and other gods" to quote the text. God was making it plain that He was serious that the commandments and the law were binding on the whole community.

Whereas Eziekel was writing hundreds of years later, and he was trying to get the Israelites to understand that moral or immoral behaviour was personal and we will answer for it on an individual basis.

To use a modern allegory, the Germans paid for Nazism by being divided for over 40 years into West and East Germany - virtually two generations.

As a community they reaped the sins of the fathers. But within East and West Germany there were good and bad individuals who were going to answer for their own behaviour on an individual basis on that day when they fronted up to the judgement seat, just as we will.

At that time what their forebears might have done will have no relevance - it will be purely personal, both for them and for us.

 

[HTacianas]

Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

One is corporate while the other is individual. When the Jews were taken into captivity to Babylon, generations were kept there. The punishment of their forefathers was inflicted on them as well. Ezekiel talks of individuals who sin and are executed for it. The father is executed for his sin but his children are not.

Corporate punishment of the Jews is found also in the new testament:

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

For their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah the Jews have now been punished corporately as a nation for two thousand years.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

People that has not been born again will have inherited all kinds of things from their parents. They will inherit sin by repeating it, and thus commit it themselves.

When we are reborn and given a new heart of flesh, and a new Spirit all is transformed.

 

[Rose_bud]

Hi there

The passage is about the character of God,
The I Am revealing who He is..
He is a God of love but also justice.

Exodus 34:6
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming,
“The Lord, the Lord,
the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

God does not "punish" the children for the sin of the parents.

Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

But the weight of His love allows for numerous opportunities to do right by Him, to trust Him. Slow to anger, abound in covenant love (hesed), he maintains and guards the hesed. It's the same kind of commitment demonstrated by Ruth.. it's a key word in the book. It's that kind of commitment and covenant love, where you give up everything for the other person.

But the rejection of so a great covenant love has consequences. A God willing to come alongside, carry, forgive failures, wrongdoing to reject this.

They surely tested and tried Him, for he is slow to anger and merciful.
Numbers 14 demonstrates how Moses appeals to Gods character of forgiveness, and God forgives, but He has to be true to Himself and be just as well. The children are not punished and do not die as the parents. But bear the result of the wickedness of the parents, they linger in the desert until what God has decreed comes to pass.
For God would bring the children into the land which the parents rejected.

As the story goes, they too had an opportunity to trust God and so too every generation after .

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some good responses thanks.

So at rebirth we are transferred from one kingdom to another - adopted into a new family.

If we see our new born identity it is as a child of the promise and the father of all who have faith is Abraham, then the promises given to him apply to us in Jesus.

So what of the sins of parents and ancestors.

Is this factor instantly removed.

Can their spiritual foolishness have set up an influence on proceeding generations?

We know Satan is an arch legalist and illegitimately claims the right to harass believers claiming the consequence of past sin.

While this may be a lie, it is one of his schemes that we need to be aware of.

We know that an undeserved curse will not settle - but Satan will try it on regardless.

Are folks taking this seriously?

 

[A servant of the Kings]

You are asking good questions, and Jesus led me after the baptism to clean for weeks, first the “heavy dirt” of the soul, then the “lighter dirt” of the spirit to approach Him Who is clean:

3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.

God is light:

5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

The spirit of God is the Spirit of Light, the pure Spirit is the Spirit of that Light:

14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

To make a long story short, when Jesus had helped me to reach the bottom of the pile of dirt in the spirit, I reached the sin of Adam. It is like a birthplace of baby impure spirits, it was placed opposite my heart in the back, we can read about it here:

Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.​

The sin of Adam is passed on through copying Adams behavior, at the centre of Adams sin as God has taught me is attraction to flesh.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

To be attracted to the flesh of women, before the light within her, is extremely detrimental for a man. I have been taught by God it is because what we are attracted to,we will turn to and walk towards.

Since the light of God is within:

4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

And since we are light in the Lord:

8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

To be attracted to flesh is death, the body of flesh will fall dead to the ground as soon as the light of God leaves it.

But to be attracted to light will turn us towards heaven where our Father is, the way that Jesus is leads there:

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

If you are interested I will testify further about how Jesus led me to clean.

 

[Veni]

Old wine & new wine take away their understanding.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Old wine & new wine take away their understanding.

The light is the light, it was and is forever, the Spirit is the Spirit of the Light.

But wineskins may burst, when we put new wine into the old:

17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will spill, and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

God does not "punish" the children for the sin of the parents.

In the light of the Scripture you quoted can you explain what you mean ???

 

[A servant of the Kings]

In the light of the Scripture you quoted can you explain what you mean ???

Hi,

Well it is the Light that God is,

5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

It is the light we can see with the eye that He gave us:

21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!…

God gave us the eye so that we may not need faith, when we have seen we know.

All that know the truth has seen the chosen ladies and their babies:

1 The elder,
To the lady chosen by God and to her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth— 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

The chosen ladies are in heaven, and so are their children

We can see heaven with the eye that can see the light of God, Jesus is in us, we are in Him, and He is in Father:

20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.

There He is on His throne in the third heaven, Jesus is on the middle throne, and there is one on His right, and one on His left:

40But to sit at My right or left is not Mine to grant. These seats belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”

Not many know we may see heaven while our bodies of flesh are still walking the earth, it is cause they do not read the bible god enough:

2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows.

The light is always there:

4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
But few are seeing, to see we must repent to clean, and heal the eye, also clean our spirit to approach purity, to willingly walk towards Him who is pure we must purify

3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.

And we need His help, His grace

Even if we are seeing the eye must be good/healed or what we will see is evil, even some heathens has seeing eyes, but they will not see the light of God with the eye

21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!…

Light will split in seven, those are the seven spirits of God. In the Holy Temple, those are the seven lamps before the throne:

revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


There is much more to say about the light, if you want you can ask me more specific questions.

But it is important to know it is there, God did not abandon people, people abandoned Him, because they are blind.

When we see we will not abandon Him, we will sacrifice the flesh for him if needed.

For what we see is all we ever wanted, there in heaven, Love is like explosions, that will obliterate all else, those are His lightnings, and the light is Love, cause God is Love

7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.…

When we are replaced with His love the first and greatest commandment of Jesus will be honored, it is the beginning and the end of the way

To love God with all our heart mind and soul

Thus it is written:

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, but have not love, I gain nothing.…

 

[Rose_bud]

In the light of the Scripture you quoted can you explain what you mean ???

Hi there

I cannot reconcile that God will punish or hold the children responsible ( ie with death) for the failure of the parents.

But rather that He, as other translations say, visit the iniquity... imo, ie, tests to see if the failure (iniquity is evident in the actions of the children and grandchildren...

As previously posted numbers 14.

Moses appeals to God, that He not destroy the people.

Now may the Lord’s strength be displayed, just as you have declared: ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’ In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now.”

The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it (even Moses was not spared... God is no respector of persons)

So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. (The children did not die for the sin of the parents).

And then in kings we have this righteous act by king Amaziah as per Deuteronomy 24:16

2 Kings 14: 5-6 After the kingdom was firmly in his grasp, he executed the officials who had murdered his father the king. Yet he did not put the children of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the Lord commanded: “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.”

I also hold that God is sovereign and can do as He pleases and for His all knowing purposes... So all His attributes should be held in tension...
So with my limitation as a created being I'm still trying to wrap my head around what transpired here...

Numbers 16:22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, “O God, the God who gives breath to all living things, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?”

27So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents

31-33As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.

 

[Rose_bud]

And also here... we sometimes need categories for our thinking about God and sin and us...

So is this punishment for the parents sin or was this his own doing? So they believed that the children reap, what the parents sow or his own consequences.

Yet Jesus gives another alternative

John 9:1-5 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

No box for God yet this I know... always a greater good even if my finite mind struggles to comprehend it..

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there

I cannot reconcile that God will punish or hold the children responsible ( ie with death) for the failure of the parents.

But rather that He, as other translations say, visit the iniquity... imo, ie, tests to see if the failure (iniquity is evident in the actions of the children and grandchildren...

As previously posted numbers 14.

Moses appeals to God, that He not destroy the people.

Now may the Lord’s strength be displayed, just as you have declared: ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’ In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now.”

The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it (even Moses was not spared... God is no respector of persons)

So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. (The children did not die for the sin of the parents).

And then in kings we have this righteous act by king Amaziah as per Deuteronomy 24:18

2 Kings 14: 5-6 After the kingdom was firmly in his grasp, he executed the officials who had murdered his father the king. Yet he did not put the children of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the Lord commanded: “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.”

I also hold that God is sovereign and can do as He pleases and for His all knowing purposes... So all His attributes should be held in tension...
So with my limitation as a created being I'm still trying to wrap my head around what transpired here...

Numbers 16:22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, “O God, the God who gives breath to all living things, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?”

27So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents

31-33As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.

The Fear of God is a close friend that keeps us from God's wrath.

Jer 32:

37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.

This is a prophesy concerning the New Covenant which came at the birth of the Body of Christ.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

11 Obey what I command you today, and I will force your enemies to leave your land. I will force out the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 12 Be careful! Don’t make any agreement with the people who live in the land where you are going. If you make an agreement with them, it will bring you trouble. 13 So destroy their altars, break the stones they worship, and cut down their idols.[b] 14 Don’t worship any other god. I am Yahweh Kanah—the jealous Lord. That is my name. I hate for my people to worship other gods.[c]

15 “Be careful not to make any agreements with the people who live in that land. If you do this, you might join them when they worship their gods. They will invite you to join them, and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 You might choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons. Those daughters serve false gods. They might lead your sons to do the same thing.

17 “Don’t make idols.

My guess is the children will lead them into false worship of other gods.

 

[Rose_bud]

The Fear of God is a close friend that keeps us from God's wrath.

Jer 32:

37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me and that all will then go well for them and for their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul.

This is a prophesy concerning the New Covenant which came at the birth of the Body of Christ.

I tend to look at it this way..
... and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

I tend to look at it this way..
... and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good ...

It is a 'both and' not an 'either or'