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Help on understanding the Trinity..

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StanJ

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By mistake or on purpose?
(i just thought you shouldn't take it personally, sorry i butted in..)
The post was made purposefully and if I took it personally, I would have reported him.
No apologies necessary, as you have the right to interject any time you choose, it is a public forum after all.
 
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1John2:4

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I am glad I'm not the only one who is confused about this. I know God is one, He is everlasting, the father. Did he create Yeshua (Jesus) in the beginning? He is Elohim for the first chapter of Genisis and the second chapter after creation he is called YHWY Elohim. Then John talks about in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Yeshua means YHWH is salvation. Shema states God is one. Was he created by the creator or is He the creator? God the father is called everlasting but Yeshua is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end. How can one be everlasting and the other the beginning and the end? Could they be Two and are one like a family? Could they be 3 like a trinity? Maybe our little human minds are not supposed to be able to comprehend it (put God in a box)I don't know I guess like you claimed we will know on the day of the Lord.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that "they are all separate spirits", whoever told you that was either very confused or else lying. What the doctrine of the Trinity does assert is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct (but not separate) hypostases, but one in essence or substance, the Greek word is ousia.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Not three gods, but one God.

Christian Baptism is traditionally done in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The ancient method was to immerse three times, this is still how the Eastern Churches practice Baptism; when there was a lack of sufficient water for immersion it was permissible to use affusion (pouring), affusion became the normal way in the West during the Middle Ages. We know this because ancient Christian writings explain these things, for example, the Didache--an ancient church manual--written sometime between 60 and 100 AD,

"Now concerning baptism, baptize like this: Having first taught all these things [previously mentioned], baptize into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in running water. If you are without running water, baptize using other water; and if you can't find cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit." - Didache ch. VII.1-3

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's tantamount to the same thing.

One can say something heretical without being a heretic. A heretic willfully believes heresy. One can, unknowingly, espouse a heretical opinion; the issue is how one responds to correction when they come to hear the orthodox teaching on the matter.

In this case, the orthodox teaching is that God does not exist in "three manifestations", but that God exists in three distinct Hypostases; we often call these "Persons" in English by way of the Latin personae used as a (not very good) translation of the Greek term hypostases. The trouble with the use of personae/persons goes back to the early centuries of the Church; the heretics Sabellius and Praxeas taught that God was a single hypostasis who presented Himself as three prosopa (usually translated into Latin as personae) the word prosopon (plural prosopa) referred to the masks worn by actors in a Greek drama. A single actor would wear different masks to place different roles.

That is problematic because it says that God's threeness is only apparent, it only seems that way to us because God can present Himself to us as Father, or as Son, or as the Holy Spirit; there is no actual threeness. God can, at any time, put on a different mask, but God is basically just a single actor wearing different masks or faces. That's the heresy known as Sabellianism, or more formally as Modalistic Monarchianism or just Modalism for short.

The doctrine of the Trinity asserts that the threeness is not only apparent, it's real. The Father is not a face God wears, the Father is real and He is God, and the Son is real and He is God, and the Holy Spirit is real and He is God--the Father and the Son exist together, share together, love together--the Father loves His Son, the Son loves His Father, there is an actual relationship here. When Jesus prays to His Father, this isn't a monologue, it's a dialogue. There are two agents engaged in communion together, actually three; because there is always the Three because they are One.

The Father, from all eternity, has His Son (who is His Word), and His Spirit. The Father who has begotten the Son before all ages, and from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus the Father has always been Father because He has a Son, and the Son has always been because He is begotten in eternity from the Father. And the Spirit, as the Spirit of the Father and the Son, has always been, proceeding.

A rejection of this is, of course, very much heresy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am glad I'm not the only one who is confused about this. I know God is one, He is everlasting, the father. Did he create Yeshua (Jesus) in the beginning?

No, the Son is begotten, not made. He is not a creature, He is uncreated and eternal. He is God even as the Father is God because He receives His essence from His Origin (the Father), and since the Father is God, then the Son is likewise God. Not two gods, but one God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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StanJ

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One can say something heretical without being a heretic. A heretic willfully believes heresy. One can, unknowingly, espouse a heretical opinion; the issue is how one responds to correction when they come to hear the orthodox teaching on the matter.
I wasn't quoting I was making a statement. It's already been well-established that I don't consider your views Orthodox nor correct.
“What is meant by the Holy Trinity?” (H. Maldwyn Hughes, M. A., D. D. Christian foundations, An introduction to Christian doctrine, page 137, ‘The Holy Trinity’ fourth edition, July 1933)
“We learn from the New Testament that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, three Persons are one God. That is a statement of the materials out of which the doctrine of the Trinity has been fashioned.”

http://carm.org/trinity

The following is taken from volume III:406-421 of The Sermons of Martin Luther.
"This word signifies that there are three persons in God. It is a heavenly mystery which the world cannot understand. I have often told you that this, as well as every other article of faith, must not be based upon reason or comparisons, but must be understood and established by means of passages from the Scriptures, for God has the only perfect knowledge and knows how to speak concerning himself."


 
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ViaCrucis

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I wasn't quoting I was making a statement. It's already been well-established that I don't consider your views Orthodox nor correct.

What you think of my views isn't really on topic; my response was intended to explain that saying a statement is heretical isn't the same as accusing someone of being a heretic. Further, I'm not providing simply my own opinions on the subject, I'm articulating what is accepted orthodox dogma.

From the Quicumque Vult or "Athanasian Creed",

"And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
"

If you prefer CARM as a source, then you can find the Quicumque Vult here: http://carm.org/christianity/creeds-and-confessions/athanasian-creed-500-ad


Correct.

Three Persons or Hypostases, not manifestations.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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StanJ

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Totally has to do with the topic because they're your views, so does that mean that you went off topic? If a person makes a statement and another person calls that statement heretical then they're calling that person a heretic, it's pretty simple.
It may be your dogma but it's not Orthodox in any way shape or form.


Correct.
Three Persons or Hypostases, not manifestations.

Wrong, three persons or manifestations, there's only one son who is the physical representation of God's nature(hypostaseōs |ὑποστάσεως | gen sg fem).
 
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LivingWordUnity

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In the sun analogy for the Holy Trinity:
  • The sun symbolizes God the Father...God the Father is far away from us in Heaven.
  • The light of the sun symbolizes Jesus Christ...Jesus came down to earth and is the light of the world.
  • The heat from the sun symbolizes the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit warms the world with the 'fire' of God's love
  • The light from the sun reaches the earth before the sun's heat does...Jesus came first and the Holy Spirit descended on the Church later at Pentecost.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What is and isn't objectively orthodox Christian teaching on the Trinity is very well attested. If you think my views are not orthodox, then you could present a response showing how they aren't. But I would be more than happy to provide numerous sources to back up the things I've said: the Creeds, the writings of the Fathers, well respected theologians from across theological/denominational boundaries.

I explained why a term like "manifestation" is inappropriate, because it indicates a Modalistic perspective.

It seems to me like you want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative rather than addressing the substance of my posts. Whatever issues you may have with me personally really aren't germane to the present discussion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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StanJ

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Not from where I'm sitting and all you do is deny any representation not in keeping with your own narrow view. How about you articulate it right out of scripture using your own words? I'm not about to get into a war of course with you. If you can't articulate it in your own words then it really doesn't mean much does it.
I explained why a term like "manifestation" is inappropriate, because it indicates a Modalistic perspective.
Not to those who haven't been inculcated into their own dogma.
It seems to me like you want to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative rather than addressing the substance of my posts. Whatever issues you may have with me personally really aren't germane to the present discussion.
The substance of your posts are simply argumentative, they don't say much they just disagree. I don't know you so I can't have any issues with you, I only have issues with the way you post. Start posting with some real content and maybe we can have some real discussions.
 
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civilwarbuff

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[/QUOTE]
It helps to use the reply button so we can discriminate where your posts end and someone else's begins.......
 
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StanJ

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It helps to use the reply button so we can discriminate where your posts end and someone else's begins.......
I always do, maybe you should check your browser settings.
 
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civilwarbuff

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It helps to use the reply button so we can discriminate where your posts end and someone else's begins.......
I always do, maybe you should check your browser settings.[/QUOTE]
Everyone else's come thru fine except yours.....Are you right clicking to highlite and then reply? cuz that is only necessary to reply to specific part of a post. Reply button copies the entire post.
 
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civilwarbuff

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We need some more humor in Christian circles.......Thanks.
He posted that a few months back in another thread; I laughed so hard I had to go change my Depends......
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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You are correct on the Trinity and yes it is well beyond our comprehension. As for baptism we are to follow Jesus's example when John baptized Christ in the river.

Christ was baptized but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptized yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.
 
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Job8

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So of course I believe in the Son, Father and Holy Ghost, but I believe that they are all in one.
There are both one and three. 1x1x1 = 1 and 1+1+1 = 3
Some Christian's like the one's who are into the Trinity believe that they are all separate spirits.
Not three separate spirits but three Divine Persons.
Trinity is found no where in the Bible though.
That is beside the point. Here is what is found in the Bible.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7).
So how does that even make sense at all?
The doctrine of the Trinity is NOT supposed to make sense. It is simply to be believed.
So how about Baptism? Are there really several ways to Baptiste or is there really only one real way?
According to Scripture there is only one way to be baptized.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19).
 
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