Help me.

[Infernalfist]

So maybe the idea of truth is in the revelation, for example, this discussion is revealing the truth of what each individual here believes truth to be?

a very good point.

 

[razzelflabben]

Nadiine, I have to admit that i have a great respect for your response.
that being said, how do you test honesty in people? can you use those same methods to test those who wrote all religious text? i believe it is doubtful that you can. no human is 100% honest, even those who follow a particular religion closely. bearing that in mind, how can you tell that the parts of those religious texts that are held in high regard were written at an honest point in that person's life?

that ones way easy, by comparing them to other witnesses of the time. That is how we test anything, by comparing it to all the evidence available. In the case of biblical accounts, we have several witnesses, as well as archeology. A Case For Christ is a great book to look at for this part of the evidence in the bible.

how do you know that they were not written in bias toward a particular idea of which that person felt to be true? i mean, i personally don't think you can tell the most about an artist by reading a biography written by a second party, you truly get a feel for an artist by observing, studying and appreciating his work.

with God, we have eye witness accounts, archeology, as well as the HS. Makes the case pretty solid....it would be like knowing the artist first hand, very well, as in spouse or child relationship, as well as having the accounts of others and his works present before us. How strong then would the case for knowing how honest he was being be? Can we know anyone on any greater level than all these three put together?

when a statement is disputed to be untrue you are able to defend it by providing evidence to prove the statement. for instance if someone were to say that the earth is flat you could show them a picture of the earth taken from a nearby satellite(not to mention a number of other methods), or when someone says that we never went to the moon you can show them video of the lunar landing. when someone tries to defend a particular religious ideal, then proof is rarely ever, if not, never able to be presented. so why stand behind it with more conviction than a scientific idea?

what if you can present evidence to support the claims? That is what the book A Case For Christ is such a good book, it looks at the evidence, not the belief only.

why not look at it with as much scrutiny as you would the idea that human kind is causing the drastic global climate change?

I personally think you should, doing so would cause us to dismiss many of the currently popular religions of our day.

 

[Infernalfist]

this argument is only valid to people who believe that it was indeed undeniably written and protected throughout the ages by the creator. plus the archeological evidence only proves the validity of the history, and in no way proves the influence of "the divine".

 

[razzelflabben]

this argument is only valid to people who believe that it was indeed undeniably written and protected throughout the ages by the creator. plus the archeological evidence only proves the validity of the history, and in no way proves the influence of "the divine".

FAir enough, now let's think through the logic of your argument. We have evidence that the book is accurate, (lots of sources) We see miracles and miracles and miracles that are documented by many sources. But even more impressive is the accuracy we see in archelogy. Now, the question we ask then is why or how did this record become so accurate. Consider this, for the ancient people, history was oral and handed down orally, that means throughout many generations. Yet archeology evidences that oral history to be right on the money. How is that possible? How is it possible that man would be able to pass down such an accurate historical account without some devine intervention. We can't even get recent history accounts right in school text books, have you ever seen some of the mistakes in them?

Now let's look a bit further logically speaking only. How is it possible that several different people all viewing or witnessing the same events could get the just of what happened accurately. Consider the scene of a crime and the number of different stories that come out of the same event. These people were in a kind of shock, stunned, just like in a crime scene. Yet every account in hauntingly the same. How could they all get it right without some divine intervention.

And that is only two ways we know, I really got to say it again, A Case For Christ would be an awesome book for you to read about the evidence.

 

[Infernalfist]

names and places might line up historically but that in no way proves that the "miracles" that took place were in fact just that. science i'm sure has proven the existence of jesus, and i am no way disputing that. i am disputing the fact that there is a good chance alot of the details could and most probably were exaggerated. i mean human kind at that time was still increadibly superstitious.
what if a man told you that a ghost took a knife from his kitchen drawer in the middle of the night and sliced an apple on the counter in two. you could be show the knife and apple the next day, but would you honestly believe that a ghost really did that? could it be possible that his son woke up and was hungry, but was called to a friends house for the weekend and left the apple and knife in that state?
the bible along with various other religious texts have events that match proven history, but that in no way shape or form proves that one particular religion or religious text is 100% credible.

 

[razzelflabben]

names and places might line up historically but that in no way proves that the "miracles" that took place were in fact just that.

can't argue about that, at least on the surface, but as a believer, I can argue that the eye witnesses and the cross examination of them, reveals a truth beyond what would be dismissable in a court of law. In other words, if we apply the same criteria, scrutany to the evidence as we do to a case in court, there is only one viable conclusion, Jesus is the Christ.

science i'm sure has proven the existence of jesus, and i am no way disputing that. i am disputing the fact that there is a good chance alot of the details could and most probably were exaggerated. i mean human kind at that time was still increadibly superstitious.

yep, which is why I suggested your reading A Case For Christ....an atheistic investagative reporter (or something similar to that title) wanted to apply the same techniques for determining guilt or innosence in a court of law to the evidence of scripture. So he applied the same principles to the evidence. It really is an interesting book. The author is...Lee Strobel

He looks at and scrutinizes the Record
eyewitness evidence
testing the eyewitness evidence
Documentary evidence
Corroborating evidence
Scientific evidence
Rebuttal evidence

He looks at and scrutinizes Jesus the Christ
Identity
Phychological
Profile
"fingerprint" as in Did Jesus and Jesus alone match the identity of the Messiah

He looks at and scutinizes the resurrection
Medical
Missing body
Appearance
Circumstancial

It really is a fascinating book for both the believer and unbeliever. I'll leave the conclusion for those who choose to read it.

what if a man told you that a ghost took a knife from his kitchen drawer in the middle of the night and sliced an apple on the counter in two. you could be show the knife and apple the next day, but would you honestly believe that a ghost really did that? could it be possible that his son woke up and was hungry, but was called to a friends house for the weekend and left the apple and knife in that state?

which is exactly why you would want to look at the evidence and scrutinize it, so that you could identify what is truth and what is fiction. The problem is that few people really know how to explore the evidence. Lee Stobel does that for a living, and that is why the book is so fascinating.

the bible along with various other religious texts have events that match proven history, but that in no way shape or form proves that one particular religion or religious text is 100% credible.

right, which is why I don't rely on that alone. As to the evidence of the bible, it goes way beyond historical accuracy, it includes all kinds of stuff, and we can add to all that evidence, present life, the evidence of lives that are changed. For the text to rate high enough to be in the 100% running, it is important to look at all the various aspects of the evidence. From the historical events to the prophecies and everything in between and beyond...

 

[Tynan]

Number one hell was not created for us. it is for the enemy/satan or his real name Lusifer, it's just that he (satan) then decided to pick us humans to go with him.

So, Satan created hell (and decided to take us humans with him).

This does not answer the OP's question, it simply delays it.

If we are to subscribe to your theology, the question now raised is:

God created Satan - knowing Satan would create hell and take the majority of humanity with him, (and to repeat the OP's question) how would God even justify such a thing?

we are locked in a war we do not even understand, all we have to really do is pick sides.

Boy is humanity screwed.

 

[Tynan]

My turn to take a stab at this, actually, I love this type of questions, hope they don't stop.

let's start here, it helps to understand that death (eternal separation from God/aka hell) are the consequences of sin, not the punishment. This is important to understand if you want to understand hell. Found in the book of Gen. we see that the consequence of sin, is death. I like to compare it to a child that is told not to run out into the street. The kid does and is hit by a car, did I sentence the child to the pain and most likely death that will incur by instructing them to not run into the street, or is the pain and likely death the result of thier disobedience, the consequence that comes from running out into the street? Man was warned, man didn't heed the warning and now, suffers the consequence of his sin.

"did I sentence the child to the pain and most likely death that will incur by instructing them to not run into the street"

If you designed and created the child knowing full well what it would do in the future, then - yes - you did sentence the child to death beneath the wheels of a car.

And further to that, not only did you know what was to happen to your creation but you actively created the child so that it would die beneath the wheels of a car - when you had the power to create a child that would not die beneath the wheels of a car.

 

[razzelflabben]

"did I sentence the child to the pain and most likely death that will incur by instructing them to not run into the street"

If you designed and created the child knowing full well what it would do in the future, then - yes - you did sentence the child to death beneath the wheels of a car.

so knowing that when I have a child, he will at one time or another disobey me and my rules, maybe getting hurt in the process, so I am guilty of their pain because I chose to have children....wow! I wasn't aware society had become so far removed from what kids are all about....having kids isn't about protecting them from everything in life, having kids is rather an act of love. If your only reason to have kids is to prove that you can make them perfect, you totally miss it, and I feel sorry for your kids.

God in this case is no different, He didn't create man to force him to be perfect, but rather because of Love. Just like we choose to have children we do so out of love, knowing full well that someday, they will disobey, someday they will defy us, someday, they will break our hearts, we do it anyway, because love is of far more value than forcing someone to be perfect.

And further to that, not only did you know what was to happen to your creation but you actively created the child so that it would die beneath the wheels of a car - when you had the power to create a child that would not die beneath the wheels of a car.

So let's put this in terms of a parent/child relationship since that is where you started it....as a parent, I can force my child to stay in my sight at all times 24/7 I can even tie the child to my arm so that he is never more than a couple feet away from me....in our society, that would be called child abuse and would result in everyone being miserable. So why then would it be a good thing for God to do if it is considered evil for man?

 

[Infernalfist]

God created Satan - knowing Satan would create hell and take the majority of humanity with him, (and to repeat the OP's question) how would God even justify such a thing?

i seriously doubt that if there is a god, he created hell or satan. religion created satan. in the absence of proof of satan they have stepped up into his shoes in order not to be wrong. there are many supposed christians reaching out for answers because the puppet show that has been put on by religious leaders is no longer sufficient to sustain intelligent ideas. religions have been feasting on their own excrement for ages and now people are starting to realize that there are more quality things to consume than the same redigested garbage they have been fed their whole lives. because the bible says so will no longer holding any water.
to the OP, keep asking those hard questions. if you don't get a sufficient answer, keep searching. you will only know that an idea is solid, once it has survived the stones and arrows of philisophical scrutiny.

 

[Infernalfist]

I can force my child to stay in my sight at all times 24/7 I can even tie the child to my arm so that he is never more than a couple feet away from me....in our society, that would be called child abuse and would result in everyone being miserable. So why then would it be a good thing for God to do if it is considered evil for man?

you can indeed, and that is the path that quite a few religious enthusiasts take to preserve the "innocence" of their children. i've seen many good people hang themselves on the leashes that their "loving" parents have made for them. why do they do this? they do it to protect their children from the imaginary boogeyman that religion has created, when in fact religion is the boogeyman that we need to protect our children against.

 

[razzelflabben]

i seriously doubt that if there is a god, he created hell or satan. religion created satan. in the absence of proof of satan they have stepped up into his shoes in order not to be wrong. there are many supposed christians reaching out for answers because the puppet show that has been put on by religious leaders is no longer sufficient to sustain intelligent ideas. religions have been feasting on their own excrement for ages and now people are starting to realize that there are more quality things to consume than the same redigested garbage they have been fed their whole lives. because the bible says so will no longer holding any water.
to the OP, keep asking those hard questions. if you don't get a sufficient answer, keep searching. you will only know that an idea is solid, once it has survived the stones and arrows of philisophical scrutiny.

And the lives of those who live out what the bible says, are surviving the stones and arrows of the scrutiny. The religious are failing just like everyone else, including but not limited to atheists, in fact, the only group surviving the scrutiny, are those that truly live out the Godly life.

 

[razzelflabben]

you can indeed, and that is the path that quite a few religious enthusiasts take to preserve the "innocence" of their children. i've seen many good people hang themselves on the leashes that their "loving" parents have made for them. why do they do this? they do it to protect their children from the imaginary boogeyman that religion has created, when in fact religion is the boogeyman that we need to protect our children against.

I have asked this question before and gotten no answer, so let's ask it again and see if you do better, usually this questions quiets the critics....

How is a belief that Love trumps all else evil? How is a belief that Love should rule our lives harming anyone?

See, there is a major difference between the religious and the believer and you as well as most of the world try to lump them all together and then call yourselves wise. The believer, holds love above all else, it is a really amazing love as well, patient, kind, thinking of others over self....not fearful, not even afraid of the boogeyman...etc. It is this very love that markes the believer/man of God from all others....but what you are talking about, what you see, is the religious, those who claim one thing and live something different...what you see are those who have not allowed themselves to be transformed into the very image of love. When you see that love within another, one of two things is likely to happen. And yes, I have seen both reactions 1. hatred...for reasons you cannot explain, just as this question goes unanswered, you (generic you not specific you) hate. They hated Jesus for the very same reasons, because they found no fault, it was jealousy. or 2. you are drawn to it, (again you all, not you specifically) you want to be ever closer to it, it calls you to a greater purpose, that of love.

So the real question boils down to this, which are you, one of the haters or one of those drawn to it.

Again, the question I would like you to answer is...How is a belief that Love trumps all else, evil? How is a belief that Love should rule our lives harming anyone? How does love destroy individual lives, much less society?

 

[Infernalfist]

And the lives of those who live out what the bible says, are surviving the stones and arrows of the scrutiny. The religious are failing just like everyone else, including but not limited to atheists, in fact, the only group surviving the scrutiny, are those that truly live out the Godly life.

i don't see that happening anymore. the faithless is the fastest growing minority in the US right now. so in fact religious ideology is no longer surviving philosophical scrutiny. more and more people are asking questions that religion is no longer able to provide a satisfactory answer to.

I have asked this question before and gotten no answer, so let's ask it again and see if you do better, usually this questions quiets the critics....

How is a belief that Love trumps all else evil? How is a belief that Love should rule our lives harming anyone?

See, there is a major difference between the religious and the believer and you as well as most of the world try to lump them all together and then call yourselves wise. The believer, holds love above all else, it is a really amazing love as well, patient, kind, thinking of others over self....not fearful, not even afraid of the boogeyman...etc. It is this very love that markes the believer/man of God from all others....but what you are talking about, what you see, is the religious, those who claim one thing and live something different...what you see are those who have not allowed themselves to be transformed into the very image of love. When you see that love within another, one of two things is likely to happen. And yes, I have seen both reactions 1. hatred...for reasons you cannot explain, just as this question goes unanswered, you (generic you not specific you) hate. They hated Jesus for the very same reasons, because they found no fault, it was jealousy. or 2. you are drawn to it, (again you all, not you specifically) you want to be ever closer to it, it calls you to a greater purpose, that of love.

So the real question boils down to this, which are you, one of the haters or one of those drawn to it.

Again, the question I would like you to answer is...How is a belief that Love trumps all else, evil? How is a belief that Love should rule our lives harming anyone? How does love destroy individual lives, much less society?

i also believe that love should be the thing that guides us through our lives. i also believe that if jesus existed he was a great man. i do not hate your viewpoints or what you worship. i was a believer, i know the reasons why people drift to religion for comfort and guidance. i have come to believe however that staring through the eyes of people who had no idea of how the world works isn't a good thing. the religious texts are obsolete and no longer apply to our way of life. it is in fact the shield of religion that has allowed many horrible acts to take place on this earth.

 

[razzelflabben]

i don't see that happening anymore. the faithless is the fastest growing minority in the US right now. so in fact religious ideology is no longer surviving philosophical scrutiny. more and more people are asking questions that religion is no longer able to provide a satisfactory answer to.

The faithful are still alive and well, and growing in their convictions, and those are the ones you are trying to fight against.

i also believe that love should be the thing that guides us through our lives. i also believe that if jesus existed he was a great man.

funny you use the word if, there is a host of evidence that says he did exist.

i do not hate your viewpoints or what you worship. i was a believer, i know the reasons why people drift to religion for comfort and guidance. i have come to believe however that staring through the eyes of people who had no idea of how the world works isn't a good thing. the religious texts are obsolete and no longer apply to our way of life.

I beg to differ, I have faced down many Galiaths in my day, and it was the Bible and the Holy Spirit within that kept me going and alive long enough to tell the story.

it is in fact the shield of religion that has allowed many horrible acts to take place on this earth.

Agreed which is why the question I asked is about believers, not the religious. Religion is nothing more than a manmade excuse to do what the flesh desires. Believers on the other hand believe that "crusifying self" or another way to say it, denying self so that Love, God's love can be revealed is the mark of a changed life, a Godly life. So when you come here, bashing the believer, you are really bashing a life that is dedicated to love, honesty, peace, etc.

 

[Infernalfist]

The faithful are still alive and well, and growing in their convictions, and those are the ones you are trying to fight against. funny you use the word if, there is a host of evidence that says he did exist. I beg to differ, I have faced down many Galiaths in my day, and it was the Bible and the Holy Spirit within that kept me going and alive long enough to tell the story. Agreed which is why the question I asked is about believers, not the religious. Religion is nothing more than a manmade excuse to do what the flesh desires. Believers on the other hand believe that "crusifying self" or another way to say it, denying self so that Love, God's love can be revealed is the mark of a changed life, a Godly life. So when you come here, bashing the believer, you are really bashing a life that is dedicated to love, honesty, peace, etc.

the individuals are growing in thier convictions to compensate for the growing numbers who are starting to disagree with them. i truely fear when that conviction becomes so strong that they bring themselves to great extremes in the name of something they can't be sure of.
i use the word if to show my own uncertainty on the subject, not to discredit yours or anyone else's belief.
don't you also think that the label of the "Holy Spirit" is just the only explanation for what you feel when you are in a higher mental state? I know how i felt when i thought that the "holy spirit" was working through me. I have however felt that way when i have completely shaken off any ideas i had about the nature of god and that kind of "belief". i have also been able to have that feeling more frequently once i understood that it was because of my own mental mind set that i was able to feel that way rather than when it was "rewarded" to me by some ancient deity. one can live a life of love and compasion without the benefit of fairy tales and insufficent explainations.

 

[razzelflabben]

the individuals are growing in thier convictions to compensate for the growing numbers who are starting to disagree with them.

sounds like biblical prophecy.

i truely fear when that conviction becomes so strong that they bring themselves to great extremes in the name of something they can't be sure of.

like life changes that better their lives and demonstrate that God does exist?

i use the word if to show my own uncertainty on the subject, not to discredit yours or anyone else's belief.

cool

don't you also think that the label of the "Holy Spirit" is just the only explanation for what you feel when you are in a higher mental state?

wow!, NO!....there is a huge difference between a mental state and a change from within....look, I have experienced things in my life that the world says I should not...where do they come from, a mental state? We all have mental states, but the things I know, the things I have experienced didn't fit with my mental state any more than an apple can be an orange.

I know how i felt when i thought that the "holy spirit" was working through me.

there is a huge difference between thinking something is happening and seeing, touching, feeling, smelling that change.

I have however felt that way when i have completely shaken off any ideas i had about the nature of god and that kind of "belief". i have also been able to have that feeling more frequently once i understood that it was because of my own mental mind set that i was able to feel that way rather than when it was "rewarded" to me by some ancient deity.

but that is the point, the Holy Spirit isn't a "feeling" and when all you see about God is the emotions, you are most likely going to fail sooner or later. Neither God or love is about some emotional response.

one can live a life of love and compasion without the benefit of fairy tales and insufficent explainations.

sure, but one's love and compassion can be made complete by the love and power of a very real, very alive God.

 

[razzelflabben]

sorry wrong thread for that post

 

[Infernalfist]

sounds like biblical prophecy.

if the bible stated that the sun will lower in the evening and rise in the morning, that isn't biblical prophecy, it is the natural order. The logical and philosophical growth of people is also apart of the way mankind exists naturally

like life changes that better their lives and demonstrate that God does exist?

throughout history, religious conviction has brought about some of the most horrible and depraved acts known to human kind.

wow!, NO!....there is a huge difference between a mental state and a change from within....look, I have experienced things in my life that the world says I should not...where do they come from, a mental state? We all have mental states, but the things I know, the things I have experienced didn't fit with my mental state any more than an apple can be an orange.

there are many things in our lives that we are unable to explain. however, accepting a 2000 year old explanation for it and dressing it up real nice does not help identify where it really comes from. when you guild a lily it's really hard to see the true beauty in the flower.

there is a huge difference between thinking something is happening and seeing, touching, feeling, smelling that change.

i agree, but there is also the fact that seeing, touching, and smelling all happen to be how the brain interprets electrical impulses through our sensory organs.

but that is the point, the Holy Spirit isn't a "feeling" and when all you see about God is the emotions, you are most likely going to fail sooner or later.Neither God or love is about some emotional response.

but that is the way god is described in the bible? a loving, wrathful, caring, vengeful, comforting, angry, forgiving, etc.

sure, but one's love and compassion can be made complete by the love and power of a very real, very alive God.

I strongly disagree, one's love and compassion can be made complete by taking responsibility for your own emotions as well as your actions. you yourself can practice acts that show love and compassion without waiting for a sign from what you believe to be an wise creator.
I can do all things through me who strengthens me.

 

[razzelflabben]

if the bible stated that the sun will lower in the evening and rise in the morning, that isn't biblical prophecy, it is the natural order. The logical and philosophical growth of people is also apart of the way mankind exists naturally

What is the logical of seeing someone experiencing the things that God says are His, and then dismissing it as some nonsense? If I say to you, use this product and X will happen, you use the product and X does happen, hasn't happened any other time, with any other product, what would the logical conclusion be? That it was all just a hoax? Of course not, you would assume that the product resulted in X. Same is true for God, is God produces X and nothing else does, then when we see X, it is logical to assume that God exists and produces X. The problem is all those that claim God but don't really follow Him or live in Him. Kind of like Claiming Y suppliment, but taking Z and then complaining because Y doesn't do what we claim.

throughout history, religious conviction has brought about some of the most horrible and depraved acts known to human kind.

again, I agree, and it saddens me as well. But that is the difference between religion and followers of the Way.

there are many things in our lives that we are unable to explain. however, accepting a 2000 year old explanation for it and dressing it up real nice does not help identify where it really comes from. when you guild a lily it's really hard to see the true beauty in the flower.

that is why you test, something even the bible tells us to do...

i agree, but there is also the fact that seeing, touching, and smelling all happen to be how the brain interprets electrical impulses through our sensory organs.

yep, and your point escapes me? Please explain what point you are trying to make.

but that is the way god is described in the bible? a loving, wrathful, caring, vengeful, comforting, angry, forgiving, etc.

not exactly, but I don't even hope anymore that those who detest God can even bring themselves to a point of discussing Him in terms of what believers find or the bible tells us that He is.

I strongly disagree, one's love and compassion can be made complete by taking responsibility for your own emotions as well as your actions. you yourself can practice acts that show love and compassion without waiting for a sign from what you believe to be an wise creator.
I can do all things through me who strengthens me.

Interesting, shall we make a challenge and let you put your money where your mouth is? How about a test, since it is internet, we would have to agree to be 100% honest about the results though. Are you up for the challenge of seeing whose god is mightier, the great I Am or you as your own god?