Help me understand myself

[WalksWithChrist]

Thanks, man. I got my 2 year chip last night at my home SAA meeting. Felt AWESOME getting that chip. I've looked at it several times today already.

I may have been powerless over my addictive behaviors, but there is one who has all power, and that one is God.

That's awesome. I've quite smoking and...other things. I know how hard that is.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Right on. Thanks man.

 

[Audiomechanic]

This tattoo thing just wont die!

So, just when everything was going well with us, last Sunday, my wife tells me she wants to get another tattoo. I didn't handle this as well as I could have, but at the same time, I handled it much better than last time. I became defensive, had some high emotions, and pulled back from her physically (crossed my arms and became to myself). Some of my responses were also a bit harsh, due to my raised emotions. But, in reflecting on it a week later, none of the points I made I would take back now.

So I told her things like, "so where is the line? What if it doesn't stop at this one?" To which she replied, "I'm not the type of person to show off my tattoos and get all tatted up. My response, "I've spoken to many people with tattoos and they thought the same way. This will be the last one, then something momentous happens in their life and they want to memorialize it on their body and they get another...and another...and another." I acknowledged why she wants to get it (much the same reason she wanted the last one...to memorialize how far she's come in her life and her strength she developed and all that...I understand that) and told her I understand. But I also told her that "...tattoos are just something I will likely never be ok with. I'll never like them. They are unattractive to me, and adding them to your body takes away from your physical attractiveness to me." She really didn't handle that one well, but it's the truth. So that conversation ended with her crying, and me beating myself up for hurting her yet again. She did ask that I take some time to really think about it.

The next day (Monday), I had a session with my (our) therapist. My wife had one too that day but had a migraine and couldn't make it. I explained the situation to my counselor in the most fair way I thought I could. Honestly trying hard not to bias the painting of the situation in either direction. I think I did a pretty good job of that. My counselor says to me, "You may never come to the place where tattoos are ok for you. And that's ok. People are entitled to not like things. And in this situation, that means you can ask her not to get one. If she does anyway, she is putting herself ahead of you and ahead of the marriage by doing something that you're clearly not ok with." That made a lot of sense to me. I came up with this analogy: "I used to smoke about 10 years ago. My wife hates cigarette smoke(rs). What if, as a manner of coping with a difficult situation or just as something I felt I needed to do, I started smoking again? Would that make me less attractive to my wife? Would she approve of that? Absolutely not! And thus, I have not done that." My therapist thought that was a great analogy.

So fast forward almost a week to yesterday evening. I wanted to give myself a few days for my emotions to level off, and to give my self time to honestly think about the tattoo thing. So last night, I brought the topic back up. I explained my position from the previous Sunday again (which had not changed from a week prior) in a level-headed, adult way, and added in the points that my (our) therapist had mentioned as well. Namely, that I can't stop her from getting the tattoo, but I wish that she wouldn't. And if she does, she's putting herself ahead of me and ahead of the marriage. I also mentioned (probably mistakenly) that her (our) therapist even mentioned that point. I said that only to give myself more credibility, and perhaps suggest that "see, your therapist thinks the same thing, that means you ought to give this more thought." She didn't take it that way, however. She thought her therapist had turned against her and that hurt her (her therapist had done no such thing). I also mentioned the smoking analogy and asked how she would react if I started smoking again. She said it'd be hard, but she'd understand and work around it. BULL crap. She'd shove me away so fast I'd fly through a wall. After the convo, she left the house last night and went God knows where. She did eventually come home and today she's in a really crappy mood.

I think she's being quite immature about this. Like she's throwing a tantrum.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I continue to stand my ground, or just suck it up, and say 'yes' to her for the 1,000,000th time, and force myself to accept the tattoo again? I don't feel I'm in the wrong here. And neither does my SAA sponser and her (our) therapist. If I am wrong, tell me.

I wish this [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] topic would die! I am my wife's biggest cheerleader and I have pushed her to do more in her life than anyone ever has before. I'm not patting myself on the back, it's a fact. And now I have this one apprehension and stuff goes nuclear. Maybe she's gotten way too used to me bending down and saying 'yes.' I don't know.

 

[seeingeyes]

This tattoo thing just wont die!

It seems like you've drawn your line in the sand and she doesn't like it. That's to be expected. This isn't really a scenario that the two of you can compromise on...only one of you can have what you want.

It is not your job to try and bend your opinions and preferences to whatever she wants. It is your job to offer her truth and love. And it sounds like you have. You haven't ordered her about, but you have been honest about your own perceptions. Now you are kind of stuck in a waiting game...

Something that might be good to talk over with your therapist is what your response will be if she A) decides to get the tattoo B) decides not to get the tattoo C) decides not to get the tattoo but resents you for it or D) decides to pack her stuff and leave because of this issue.

Planning your response in advance might help you to keep your emotions in check when you speak with her about this again.

I'm praying for the two of you, brother.

 

[ValleyGal]

AM, does your wife have an older lady from the church who can mentor her? It sounds like she needs someone who is married, to teach her about the necessity of self-sacrifice in marriage, and how this is a two-way thing. Both of you need to give up stuff in order to accommodate the other's best interest. It does not work for you to tell her this, otherwise it might come across as you seeking to get your own way. If it comes from someone older, married, and godly, then it might not be about you so much as it is about her.

Also, your therapist might help your wife to explore why tattoos are so important as to threaten her marriage with them. Maybe she can commit to not getting one at least until she has explored the issue with your therapist.

It is important that you acknowledge your wife for discussing it with you first. She did the right thing, and it is okay for you to hold fast to your values. In fact, values are really important here. What is her value with tattoos? Is it self expression, is it an artistic thing, etc. If she values self expression and has no other outlet for it, she might want to express through tattoos. But if she found another way of self expression, maybe she would not need to express through tattoos. Something you might want to chat with her about anyway.

I'm so sorry this is so hard....marriage really can be hard. I know you love her, though, and you have done a lot to express that to her, including hard stuff like working to accept her last tattoo. I don't blame you for not wanting to go through that again. Boundaries are good, so it's good you talked about it. Now, as seeingeyes says, it is a good idea to figure out how you will respond to all the potential outcomes.

Also praying for you.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

This tattoo thing just wont die!

So, just when everything was going well with us, last Sunday, my wife tells me she wants to get another tattoo. I didn't handle this as well as I could have, but at the same time, I handled it much better than last time. I became defensive, had some high emotions, and pulled back from her physically (crossed my arms and became to myself). Some of my responses were also a bit harsh, due to my raised emotions. But, in reflecting on it a week later, none of the points I made I would take back now.

So I told her things like, "so where is the line? What if it doesn't stop at this one?" To which she replied, "I'm not the type of person to show off my tattoos and get all tatted up. My response, "I've spoken to many people with tattoos and they thought the same way. This will be the last one, then something momentous happens in their life and they want to memorialize it on their body and they get another...and another...and another." I acknowledged why she wants to get it (much the same reason she wanted the last one...to memorialize how far she's come in her life and her strength she developed and all that...I understand that) and told her I understand. But I also told her that "...tattoos are just something I will likely never be ok with. I'll never like them. They are unattractive to me, and adding them to your body takes away from your physical attractiveness to me." She really didn't handle that one well, but it's the truth. So that conversation ended with her crying, and me beating myself up for hurting her yet again. She did ask that I take some time to really think about it.

The next day (Monday), I had a session with my (our) therapist. My wife had one too that day but had a migraine and couldn't make it. I explained the situation to my counselor in the most fair way I thought I could. Honestly trying hard not to bias the painting of the situation in either direction. I think I did a pretty good job of that. My counselor says to me, "You may never come to the place where tattoos are ok for you. And that's ok. People are entitled to not like things. And in this situation, that means you can ask her not to get one. If she does anyway, she is putting herself ahead of you and ahead of the marriage by doing something that you're clearly not ok with." That made a lot of sense to me. I came up with this analogy: "I used to smoke about 10 years ago. My wife hates cigarette smoke(rs). What if, as a manner of coping with a difficult situation or just as something I felt I needed to do, I started smoking again? Would that make me less attractive to my wife? Would she approve of that? Absolutely not! And thus, I have not done that." My therapist thought that was a great analogy.

So fast forward almost a week to yesterday evening. I wanted to give myself a few days for my emotions to level off, and to give my self time to honestly think about the tattoo thing. So last night, I brought the topic back up. I explained my position from the previous Sunday again (which had not changed from a week prior) in a level-headed, adult way, and added in the points that my (our) therapist had mentioned as well. Namely, that I can't stop her from getting the tattoo, but I wish that she wouldn't. And if she does, she's putting herself ahead of me and ahead of the marriage. I also mentioned (probably mistakenly) that her (our) therapist even mentioned that point. I said that only to give myself more credibility, and perhaps suggest that "see, your therapist thinks the same thing, that means you ought to give this more thought." She didn't take it that way, however. She thought her therapist had turned against her and that hurt her (her therapist had done no such thing). I also mentioned the smoking analogy and asked how she would react if I started smoking again. She said it'd be hard, but she'd understand and work around it. BULL crap. She'd shove me away so fast I'd fly through a wall. After the convo, she left the house last night and went God knows where. She did eventually come home and today she's in a really crappy mood.

I think she's being quite immature about this. Like she's throwing a tantrum.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I continue to stand my ground, or just suck it up, and say 'yes' to her for the 1,000,000th time, and force myself to accept the tattoo again? I don't feel I'm in the wrong here. And neither does my SAA sponser and her (our) therapist. If I am wrong, tell me.

I wish this [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] topic would die! I am my wife's biggest cheerleader and I have pushed her to do more in her life than anyone ever has before. I'm not patting myself on the back, it's a fact. And now I have this one apprehension and stuff goes nuclear. Maybe she's gotten way too used to me bending down and saying 'yes.' I don't know.

It's not you...it's her.

Stand your ground and be firm.

 

[mkgal1]

It seems like you've drawn your line in the sand and she doesn't like it. That's to be expected. This isn't really a scenario that the two of you can compromise on...only one of you can have what you want.

It is not your job to try and bend your opinions and preferences to whatever she wants. It is your job to offer her truth and love. And it sounds like you have. You haven't ordered her about, but you have been honest about your own perceptions. Now you are kind of stuck in a waiting game...

Something that might be good to talk over with your therapist is what your response will be if she A) decides to get the tattoo B) decides not to get the tattoo C) decides not to get the tattoo but resents you for it or D) decides to pack her stuff and leave because of this issue.

Planning your response in advance might help you to keep your emotions in check when you speak with her about this again.

I'm praying for the two of you, brother.

ITA with SeeingEyes. No....I don't think you're in the wrong. I think it's a great idea to talk to your therapist about responses...and being able to work that out in advance.

Praying for the two of you as well.

ETA- I think the smoking analogy is an equivalent comparison, too. I pray that she gives that some sincere thought.

 

[Audiomechanic]

It seems like you've drawn your line in the sand and she doesn't like it. That's to be expected. This isn't really a scenario that the two of you can compromise on...only one of you can have what you want.

It is not your job to try and bend your opinions and preferences to whatever she wants. It is your job to offer her truth and love. And it sounds like you have. You haven't ordered her about, but you have been honest about your own perceptions. Now you are kind of stuck in a waiting game...

Something that might be good to talk over with your therapist is what your response will be if she A) decides to get the tattoo B) decides not to get the tattoo C) decides not to get the tattoo but resents you for it or D) decides to pack her stuff and leave because of this issue.

Planning your response in advance might help you to keep your emotions in check when you speak with her about this again.

I'm praying for the two of you, brother.

Thank you for this. Great advice too. I will ponder over those responses. I don't see the therapist again until Monday the 12th and neither does my wife (if she chooses to go).

AM, does your wife have an older lady from the church who can mentor her? It sounds like she needs someone who is married, to teach her about the necessity of self-sacrifice in marriage, and how this is a two-way thing. Both of you need to give up stuff in order to accommodate the other's best interest. It does not work for you to tell her this, otherwise it might come across as you seeking to get your own way. If it comes from someone older, married, and godly, then it might not be about you so much as it is about her.

Also, your therapist might help your wife to explore why tattoos are so important as to threaten her marriage with them. Maybe she can commit to not getting one at least until she has explored the issue with your therapist.

It is important that you acknowledge your wife for discussing it with you first. She did the right thing, and it is okay for you to hold fast to your values. In fact, values are really important here. What is her value with tattoos? Is it self expression, is it an artistic thing, etc. If she values self expression and has no other outlet for it, she might want to express through tattoos. But if she found another way of self expression, maybe she would not need to express through tattoos. Something you might want to chat with her about anyway.

I'm so sorry this is so hard....marriage really can be hard. I know you love her, though, and you have done a lot to express that to her, including hard stuff like working to accept her last tattoo. I don't blame you for not wanting to go through that again. Boundaries are good, so it's good you talked about it. Now, as seeingeyes says, it is a good idea to figure out how you will respond to all the potential outcomes.

Also praying for you.

Thank you, VG.

My wife has not been to church in a long time. And shameful as it is for me to admit, neither have I, with the exception of running the sound board. So to answer your question, no, she doesn't.

As far as her therapist exploring why she wants the tattoo so badly, I would agree, but that's only if she decides to go again. She said last night that she is cancelling all her booked appointments. She feels betrayed by her therapist and thinks that it's an "us vs her" sort of thing going on, when that's simply not true. Her therapist was simply stating the fact of the matter and helping me through my codependency that would otherwise bow down and give in. The raw fact of the matter is: she wants to do something, I don't like it and ask her not to, therefore, if she does, she's going against my wishes and putting herself ahead of me and the marriage. Doesn't really matter what the thing is, this is the raw fact of the matter. The same applies to me.

In hindsight, I should not have brought the therapist into this discussion. I was only trying to add weight to my argument and credibility as well.

As to acknowledging her coming to me first, I have. I did a week ago, and I did again last night. I do appreciate her coming to me very much. Truthfully.

To the values thing, I'm not really sure what her values are when it comes to tattoos. I know she wants one really badly for a seemingly good reason: she wants to memorialize a really tough and trans-formative year, as opposed to the not-so-good reason like: "that butterfly on the wall would look super cute on my butt. ^__^"

Thank you for your prayers.

It's not you...it's her.

Stand your ground and be firm.

Thank you for your affirmation.

ITA with SeeingEyes. No....I don't think you're in the wrong. I think it's a great idea to talk to your therapist about responses...and being able to work that out in advance.

Praying for the two of you as well.

ETA- I think the smoking analogy is an equivalent comparison, too. I pray that she gives that some sincere thought.

Thank you for your affirmation as well and your prayers.

 

[mkgal1]

The raw fact of the matter is: she wants to do something, I don't like it and ask her not to, therefore, if she does, she's going against my wishes and putting herself ahead of me and the marriage. Doesn't really matter what the thing is, this is the raw fact of the matter. The same applies to me.

I just wanted to pull this out---all on its own---because this really is what it all comes down to. Like you said, it doesn't really matter what the "thing" is (because nothing can be undone........just like tattoos).

 

[mkgal1]

I know she wants one really badly for a seemingly good reason: she wants to memorialize a really tough and trans-formative year, as opposed to the not-so-good reason like: "that butterfly on the wall would look super cute on my butt. ^__^"

I "get" the idea of memorializing----God even had the Israelites do that (this wasn't the only time.....but, do you recall the Joshua stones?). Maybe she'd be open to something that works for BOTH of you (the artwork put to canvas, jewelry, or something)?

 

[Audiomechanic]

I just wanted to pull this out---all on its own---because this really is what it all comes down to. Like you said, it doesn't really matter what the "thing" is (because nothing can be undone........just like tattoos).

Thank you, again, for your affirmation. I doubt myself because of my codependency. I'm so used to being a doormat. This whole "standing up for myself" thing is weird to me and scary too. But I know I need to do it. I'm harming myself, her and our marriage by not overcoming it.

I "get" the idea of memorializing----God even had the Israelites do that (this wasn't the only time.....but, do you recall the Joshua stones?). Maybe she'd be open to something that works for BOTH of you (the artwork put to canvas, jewelry, or something)?

Last night, I even mentioned that I'd be happy to help her find another way of expressing herself and/or coping. I reminded her that I'm her biggest cheerleader (she agrees with this and agrees with my statement that I have rarely ever tried to hold her back from anything) and so my refusal to want to to get a tattoo is not me on a power trip, or holding her down, or holding her back in any such way (except that of getting a tattoo). I said that there are MILLIONS of ways to express herself, and to memorialize this year, and the only one I'm against is tattoos.

She didn't take well to that, but by the time I got to that part of the conversation, she was already shut down and didn't take that or anything said thereafter in.

 

[mkgal1]

Thank you, again, for your affirmation. I doubt myself because of my codependency. I'm so used to being a doormat. This whole "standing up for myself" thing is weird to me and scary too. But I know I need to do it. I'm harming myself, her and our marriage by not overcoming it.

I know what you mean......I've been there as well. Those old habits die hard (especially when there's resistance and it'd be easier to be a door mat). You're doing great, though. I think that keeping it in the forefront that it's harming everyone by being a door mat, that does make it easier to fight for a different way of relating (like you are doing).

Last night, I even mentioned that I'd be happy to help her find another way of expressing herself and/or coping. I reminded her that I'm her biggest cheerleader (she agrees with this and agrees with my statement that I have rarely ever tried to hold her back from anything) and so my refusal to want to to get a tattoo is not me on a power trip, or holding her down, or holding her back in any such way (except that of getting a tattoo). I said that there are MILLIONS of ways to express herself, and to memorialize this year, and the only one I'm against is tattoos.

She didn't take well to that, but by the time I got to that part of the conversation, she was already shut down and didn't take that or anything said thereafter in.

Well.....the choice is now up to her. I think you've expressed very well your thoughts on it (including that doing so would be her placing herself over you and even your connection with her). You've empathized with her about her need to express herself; to memorialize this time in her life, and given her alternate ideas. Love is NOT unconditional----we can't do whatever we please and expect the other person to not be affected.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Thank you, mkgal.

On a side note, I just shared my First Step at my SAA meeting tonight!!! That was the scariest thing I've ever read in front of people in my life! But as scary as it was because of all of the shameful awful things in my first step, it was all met with love and acceptance, and my fellow addicts saying, "Your story is my story" and "I can relate to what you're saying" and "I had that same thing happen to me!"

Amazing. Simply amazing. I am overwhelmed right now. Gonna need a while to process this.

 

[seeingeyes]

Thank you, mkgal.

On a side note, I just shared my First Step at my SAA meeting tonight!!! That was the scariest thing I've ever read in front of people in my life! But as scary as it was because of all of the shameful awful things in my first step, it was all met with love and acceptance, and my fellow addicts saying, "Your story is my story" and "I can relate to what you're saying" and "I had that same thing happen to me!"

Amazing. Simply amazing. I am overwhelmed right now. Gonna need a while to process this.

That's awesome.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Yep, she's set on getting this 3rd tattoo. Hasn't gotten it yet, but I did at least convince her to go back to her therapist next Monday. *sigh*

I'm always the one to give in. Always.

I don't know what to do. Don't think she's going to steer away from this.

 

[mkgal1]

I'm sorry. I really don't know where the healthy line is between "remaining in love" and "being taken advantage of". I hope her therapist can get through to her how our choices have permanent effects (permanent.....like a tattoo).

ETA~ One aspect of genuine love is that it's sacrificial. The thing is......that is *still* us choosing to offer up the sacrifice. It's completely different (IMO) when someone "steals" away and takes that sacrifice from us (leaving us no choice in the matter, really). Do you know what I mean?

 

[Audiomechanic]

I'm sorry. I really don't know where the healthy line is between "remaining in love" and "being taken advantage of". I hope her therapist can get through to her how our choices have permanent effects (permanent.....like a tattoo).

ETA~ One aspect of genuine love is that it's sacrificial. The thing is......that is *still* us choosing to offer up the sacrifice. It's completely different (IMO) when someone "steals" away and takes that sacrifice from us (leaving us no choice in the matter, really). Do you know what I mean?

I think I am grasping what you mean there.

Unfortunately for this specific topic, there's not really a compromise. Either she gets it and has it forever, or she doesn't. No real middle ground. She seems pretty dead set on it. She feels that her therapist betrayed her, which could not be further from reality, so hopefully she is not shut down to her therapist during her next appt on Monday.

 

[mkgal1]

I think I am grasping what you mean there.

Unfortunately for this specific topic, there's not really a compromise. Either she gets it and has it forever, or she doesn't. No real middle ground. She seems pretty dead set on it. She feels that her therapist betrayed her, which could not be further from reality, so hopefully she is not shut down to her therapist during her next appt on Monday.

I don't know about there *not* being a compromise. I understand what you're saying, but I just don't think it's that black and white. At the core......her reason for wanting this new tattoo is to memorialize (from what you've posted). Like you mentioned earlier.......you discussed alternate ways for her to do that (ways that would respect your opinions/emotions). I see that as a way that everyone gets what they want. If it were me......I even think that choice (chooses a different way---other than a tattoo) would make the original tattoos (the ones she has now) even more acceptable----sort of something from "the old ways of relating". I don't know......I don't want to be divisive, but I understand her need to be able to make her own decisions----it's just that they shouldn't trample over you.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I see what you're saying. And I agree.

The alternatives just don't seem to do it for her though. She is dead set on this thing. I think it's what she wants, and since she's honed in on it, everything else will seem less or inadequate. She said to me in an email today, "Thinking maybe I should just give up on trying to memorialize this year." (direct quote)

Part of me wants to just tell her, "FINE! You want it? Get the stupid thing! Get a whole sleeve or mural on your back and inner thighs for all I care!" But I know that's not right. I'm not trying to be stubborn.

 

[mkgal1]

I know you're not trying to be stubborn (or that you even *are* being stubborn----just sincere and not in denial). It's hurtful when your opinions get dismissed. It also chips away from your love (since you're human).