Help me understand myself

[McScribe]

I think it's important to keep in mind that there's some mutual hurt going on here. It's great that you're taking responsibility for your anger, but I'm concerned that she went and did it anyway regardless. While you were upset, she left, then came back only on her own terms. So this upset in your marriage is both of you. Both of you have things to overcome.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I think it's important to keep in mind that there's some mutual hurt going on here. It's great that you're taking responsibility for your anger, but I'm concerned that she went and did it anyway regardless. While you were upset, she left, then came back only on her own terms. So this upset in your marriage is both of you. Both of you have things to overcome.

Playing the blame game isn't going to help anyone.

Can we just encourage? Audiomechanic has found his path for dealing with this and I think our place is to encourage him as he walks it.

His focus is in the right place: on working on himself. We know they're both in counseling, so we just have to trust that whatever issues she has she is dealing with. He's the one here, sharing with us, so we need to help him deal with him, not shift the focus to someone else.

 

[Hetta]

Playing the blame game isn't going to help anyone.

Can we just encourage? Audiomechanic has found his path for dealing with this and I think our place is to encourage him as he walks it.

His focus is in the right place: on working on himself. We know they're both in counseling, so we just have to trust that whatever issues she has she is dealing with. He's the one here, sharing with us, so we need to help him deal with him, not shift the focus to someone else.

 

[Hetta]

Update: So my wife has been home all week, still sleeping in the guest bedroom, but at least she's home. Couple nights ago we had a long conversation about what happened and I expanded on what the therapist told her during my session. I explained that it was a reaction, not unlike jerking your hand off a hot stove, and that the reaction came from a very irrational belief system that I developed very early on in my life. And one I am working to correct now. She asked me questions trying to rationalize my behavior and I told her she can't do that. Since my behavior came from an irrational place, it doesn't and won't make sense. Trying to rationalize something irrational will just make one crazy. So I told her she has to try and remember where all of this came from, that it doesn't make any sense, and that I am working to correct it.

I then gave her my heartfelt and meaningful apology for it all, which she thanked me for.

Last night we made even more progress. She had taken a bunch of pictures of her trip to see her sister which she had not shown to me yet (mostly because the tattoo pictures were in there). So I put them up on the big-screen slideshow style and she narrated. We didn't skip the tattoo ones and she went without a sock last night (the tattoo is on her ankle). I felt some of those old feeling creep up, but worked through them and didn't let myself slip back into them. We had a good conversation and she even laughed a couple times. She still slept in the guest bedroom last night though. I'm trying to give her the time she needs (which is tough for someone who talks through problems and doesn't like being apart from her when there's unresolved issues. But I have to give her space and time to heal.

Progress!! I hope that she soon makes it back into your bedroom! Praying for complete healing and reconciliation.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Update:

So this past week, we've been pretty distant from each other. She has been very depressed and pulled into herself, and some of that has come out as meanness to me. She has snipped at me and made snide comments on and off this week. I have tried to be patient, but it did wear on me and I began to feel defensive. Every night this week I offered for her to come sleep in the bedroom in the comfortable bed, but she declined.

Saturday, we were going to go to a friend's house to watch football and hang out. She changed her mind on going, citing she didn't want to be around people we know. Fair enough. She pushed me to go, though. So I did. While I was there, she sent me a very long email outlining everything that's going on with her and in her mind. I left shortly after receiving the email and came back home. I made it home just in time, because she was about to head out the door to go "out." I sat her down and we discussed the email. I told her that I appreciate her opening up to me and telling me all that she did. I also mentioned my defensiveness because of her mean snips at me (which she admitted to doing in the email). She said she was sorry in the email and I told her I forgave her (which I did...although it would have been nicer to hear her say the apology). She did mention that she doesn't feel she needs to apologize for going behind my back and getting the tattoo, and I told her I felt she did. Does she have to grovel at my feet? Absolutely not, but a simple apology would be nice and cause me to feel some relief. She asked why she should, and I told her, "because I need it, and sometimes you have to do things for your spouse that don't make sense to you." I've apologized to her many times for things I didn't feel deserved an apology, but I did it because that's what she needed. I have yet to receive that apology, but I am waiting. I need that closure.

That night, she still slept in the guest bedroom and had a bit of conversion disorder (just effected her walking).

So yesterday, I get home from working the sound booth at the church, and she decides to head "out" again. I convince her over text to turn around and come back to the house so that both of us can do something together. She came back and we talked about what to do. I tossed out ideas of things she likes, and she shot them all down because they're not things I like to do. I told her, "my goal here is to spend time with you, the activity really doesn't matter." So I eventually convinced her to go and we went out. We first stopped and got cupcakes from this really good cupcake place in town, then stopped by a home furnishing and fabric store that she's always wanted to see. Definitely not my thing, but I stayed interested for her. Her mood began to lift. After that, she started to head home (she was driving), but I had none of it and made her drive to her favorite flower shop downtown. She loves to make bouquets and she picked out enough flowers to make two arrangements. She was still down and quiet when she got home, but I could tell she was in better spirits. That night I had a meeting to go to, so I went. While there she sends me an email thanking me for the day and for pushing her to do those things and how that was just what she needed.

That night, I invited her to bed as I had every night, and this time she came to bed! Even wanted to cuddle as she drifted off to sleep! Progress!

This week as we interacted, she did not cover the tattoo, but at the same time, I didn't really have an issue with it, likely because I have uncovered the source of why I felt the way I did about tattoos. I still don't like them, and I don't have to, but I want to get to a place where they don't bother me.

As for me, I am happy that she is coming around, and I feel good about our progress, but part of me is still conflicted and needs closure from this whole thing. I need/want apologies that I haven't received yet. I still feel defensive, I still feel wounded, and a little jaded.

 

[seeingeyes]

Update:

So this past week, we've been pretty distant from each other. She has been very depressed and pulled into herself, and some of that has come out as meanness to me. She has snipped at me and made snide comments on and off this week. I have tried to be patient, but it did wear on me and I began to feel defensive. Every night this week I offered for her to come sleep in the bedroom in the comfortable bed, but she declined.

Saturday, we were going to go to a friend's house to watch football and hang out. She changed her mind on going, citing she didn't want to be around people we know. Fair enough. She pushed me to go, though. So I did. While I was there, she sent me a very long email outlining everything that's going on with her and in her mind. I left shortly after receiving the email and came back home. I made it home just in time, because she was about to head out the door to go "out." I sat her down and we discussed the email. I told her that I appreciate her opening up to me and telling me all that she did. I also mentioned my defensiveness because of her mean snips at me (which she admitted to doing in the email). She said she was sorry in the email and I told her I forgave her (which I did...although it would have been nicer to hear her say the apology). She did mention that she doesn't feel she needs to apologize for going behind my back and getting the tattoo, and I told her I felt she did. Does she have to grovel at my feet? Absolutely not, but a simple apology would be nice and cause me to feel some relief. She asked why she should, and I told her, "because I need it, and sometimes you have to do things for your spouse that don't make sense to you." I've apologized to her many times for things I didn't feel deserved an apology, but I did it because that's what she needed. I have yet to receive that apology, but I am waiting. I need that closure.

That night, she still slept in the guest bedroom and had a bit of conversion disorder (just effected her walking).

So yesterday, I get home from working the sound booth at the church, and she decides to head "out" again. I convince her over text to turn around and come back to the house so that both of us can do something together. She came back and we talked about what to do. I tossed out ideas of things she likes, and she shot them all down because they're not things I like to do. I told her, "my goal here is to spend time with you, the activity really doesn't matter." So I eventually convinced her to go and we went out. We first stopped and got cupcakes from this really good cupcake place in town, then stopped by a home furnishing and fabric store that she's always wanted to see. Definitely not my thing, but I stayed interested for her. Her mood began to lift. After that, she started to head home (she was driving), but I had none of it and made her drive to her favorite flower shop downtown. She loves to make bouquets and she picked out enough flowers to make two arrangements. She was still down and quiet when she got home, but I could tell she was in better spirits. That night I had a meeting to go to, so I went. While there she sends me an email thanking me for the day and for pushing her to do those things and how that was just what she needed.

That night, I invited her to bed as I had every night, and this time she came to bed! Even wanted to cuddle as she drifted off to sleep! Progress!

This week as we interacted, she did not cover the tattoo, but at the same time, I didn't really have an issue with it, likely because I have uncovered the source of why I felt the way I did about tattoos. I still don't like them, and I don't have to, but I want to get to a place where they don't bother me.

Nice!

As for me, I am happy that she is coming around, and I feel good about our progress, but part of me is still conflicted and needs closure from this whole thing. I need/want apologies that I haven't received yet. I still feel defensive, I still feel wounded, and a little jaded.

Let's pretend that you will get that apology, but that it will take 40 years. Are you willing to wait for it?

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Update:

So this past week, we've been pretty distant from each other. She has been very depressed and pulled into herself, and some of that has come out as meanness to me. She has snipped at me and made snide comments on and off this week. I have tried to be patient, but it did wear on me and I began to feel defensive. Every night this week I offered for her to come sleep in the bedroom in the comfortable bed, but she declined.

Saturday, we were going to go to a friend's house to watch football and hang out. She changed her mind on going, citing she didn't want to be around people we know. Fair enough. She pushed me to go, though. So I did. While I was there, she sent me a very long email outlining everything that's going on with her and in her mind. I left shortly after receiving the email and came back home. I made it home just in time, because she was about to head out the door to go "out." I sat her down and we discussed the email. I told her that I appreciate her opening up to me and telling me all that she did. I also mentioned my defensiveness because of her mean snips at me (which she admitted to doing in the email). She said she was sorry in the email and I told her I forgave her (which I did...although it would have been nicer to hear her say the apology). She did mention that she doesn't feel she needs to apologize for going behind my back and getting the tattoo, and I told her I felt she did. Does she have to grovel at my feet? Absolutely not, but a simple apology would be nice and cause me to feel some relief. She asked why she should, and I told her, "because I need it, and sometimes you have to do things for your spouse that don't make sense to you." I've apologized to her many times for things I didn't feel deserved an apology, but I did it because that's what she needed. I have yet to receive that apology, but I am waiting. I need that closure.

That night, she still slept in the guest bedroom and had a bit of conversion disorder (just effected her walking).

So yesterday, I get home from working the sound booth at the church, and she decides to head "out" again. I convince her over text to turn around and come back to the house so that both of us can do something together. She came back and we talked about what to do. I tossed out ideas of things she likes, and she shot them all down because they're not things I like to do. I told her, "my goal here is to spend time with you, the activity really doesn't matter." So I eventually convinced her to go and we went out. We first stopped and got cupcakes from this really good cupcake place in town, then stopped by a home furnishing and fabric store that she's always wanted to see. Definitely not my thing, but I stayed interested for her. Her mood began to lift. After that, she started to head home (she was driving), but I had none of it and made her drive to her favorite flower shop downtown. She loves to make bouquets and she picked out enough flowers to make two arrangements. She was still down and quiet when she got home, but I could tell she was in better spirits. That night I had a meeting to go to, so I went. While there she sends me an email thanking me for the day and for pushing her to do those things and how that was just what she needed.

That night, I invited her to bed as I had every night, and this time she came to bed! Even wanted to cuddle as she drifted off to sleep! Progress!

This week as we interacted, she did not cover the tattoo, but at the same time, I didn't really have an issue with it, likely because I have uncovered the source of why I felt the way I did about tattoos. I still don't like them, and I don't have to, but I want to get to a place where they don't bother me.

As for me, I am happy that she is coming around, and I feel good about our progress, but part of me is still conflicted and needs closure from this whole thing. I need/want apologies that I haven't received yet. I still feel defensive, I still feel wounded, and a little jaded.

Awesome! I'm so happy you guys make that progress. Very encouraging, I'm sure. I'll pray for you guys some more.


About the not-apologizing thing. I can feel you on that one. My wife is the stubborn type and has only said sorry to me maybe a couple times in the almost 15 years I've known her. And that was just a quick sorry for small things like accidentally smacking me with a heavy object or something. And it bothers me too, very much. But I bear it and I've learned not to pressure her to do something she has a lot of trouble doing.
She probably is sorry on some level. But just has trouble expressing it to you.
It helps me to focus on those positives. Realize what it is that you love about her and emphasize that part of the relationship in your mind and heart.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Let's pretend that you will get that apology, but that it will take 40 years. Are you willing to wait for it?

Given enough time, I'd probaby forget about it. Definitely not 40 years of time, though. But I still want it. It's a show of respect. Whether or not it makes sense to her.

 

[seeingeyes]

Given enough time, I'd probaby forget about it. Definitely not 40 years of time, though. But I still want it. It's a show of respect. Whether or not it makes sense to her.

Here's something to consider, though: What if an apology is not actually the closure that you need? What if what you are really looking for is some assurance that this won't happen again?

I don't know your wife's deal, here, but if she feels that your response to this tattoo and request for an apology is an attempt to control her (for example), then you probably wouldn't want an apology if it meant that your wife caving in to her own past 'demons'.

You both have things you are working on here, and chances are that your issues are the opposite of her issues (because life), so what you need may be at odds with what your wife needs.

You might never get any assurance that she will never get another tattoo. You might never get an apology. But that might be ok in this case if you can get to a place where each of you shows respect and compassion for the other.

Perhaps if she agreed to see a counselor with you before any future tattoos, out of sympathy for your weakness, then that would be enough 'closure'. You could then have reassurance that if this does happen again, at least you won't be 'blindsided' by it.

 

[ValleyGal]

Audiomechanic, I need to say what others are saying without using so many words. You have approached this whole thing with the maturity of a good husband who loves his wife deeply. It's so amazing to see you take responsibility for getting through this rough patch and come out on top. It sounds like for the most part, you have given her exactly what she needs, and even if she does not offer an apology now, chances are, eventually your humility will break through to her. My husband is very humble and is quick to reconcile the relationship during a rough time - and slowly, he has made it "safe" for me to show him that very vulnerable place inside of me that makes humility a challenge for me. His humility is starting to break through my pride. I hope the same happens for your wife, but keep up doing what you are doing. You are a good husband for her.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Audiomechanic, I need to say what others are saying without using so many words. You have approached this whole thing with the maturity of a good husband who loves his wife deeply. It's so amazing to see you take responsibility for getting through this rough patch and come out on top. It sounds like for the most part, you have given her exactly what she needs, and even if she does not offer an apology now, chances are, eventually your humility will break through to her. My husband is very humble and is quick to reconcile the relationship during a rough time - and slowly, he has made it "safe" for me to show him that very vulnerable place inside of me that makes humility a challenge for me. His humility is starting to break through my pride. I hope the same happens for your wife, but keep up doing what you are doing. You are a good husband for her.

I needed to read these words. Thank you.

 

[hijklmnop]

Continuing to hope and pray for more and more healing for both of you! Keep your chin up and don't get waylaid by things you can't control...you're doing great!

 

[Audiomechanic]

Well we WERE doing better.

Last night my wife sends me an email about the apology I wanted and stated her side a bit. So this morning we had a talk about the apology I wanted and stuff and my wife said that apologizing for getting the tattoo (not what I wanted) and/or apologizing for getting it behind my back (what I wanted) is something she cannot do. I was initially disappointed and hurt that she could not fulfill this simple request. She explained that if she did that, she would essentially be regretting the decision to get the tattoo, which is something she would not do. She said that since she didn't know my position on it, that I had been silent when she inquired the month before (true) and that she knew I didn't like tats (just didn't know the extent...my fault for not telling her), she basically had to do what she did. I guess that makes sense. She did apologize for hurting my feelings though. I'll take what I can get and be happy with that, I suppose.

She had said in an email to me last night that she was happy to discuss this stuff, and so we talked about it this morning, but she ended up crying a lot and now she's all pulled into herself again, doesn't want to be around me, doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to do anything. Awesome. We WERE doing better. I think at this point, I'm just going to resolve to not discuss anything involving the tattoo going forward. At all. Any further issues I have with it, I'm just going to deal with myself. Any further issues I have with it are going to be my own junk anyway, so I'll handle it alone (with my SAA sponsor and therapist, but without her). Every time we go two steps forward, and it comes up, it knocks us 5 steps backward. I just don't think we're moving forward together on this and we're better off dealing with our own stuff separately.

I feel badly for hurting her, and have apologized. I've also taken many steps to understand and heal this old open wound of mine. She is working towards the same. So I feel it best to just leave it alone now.

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm so sorry this is ongoing, but it sounds like progress because she did apologize for hurting your feelings. And if she didn't know how much a tat would bother you when she did it, I'd say this is good progress. You are both learning much about each other, and when you come out the other side, it can - if you both let it and if you both treat each other respectfully - create a greater sense of safety and intimacy in your marriage.

One of the things that struck me from your post is that she thinks apologizing for going behind your back would indicate regret for getting a tattoo. This is not the case, though, She has apologized for hurting your feelings, and she can apologize for going behind your back - without regretting the tat. She can love her tat, but regret the way she went about getting it.

But on the other hand, it looks like she tried talking with you about it a month before she got it. If you had responded then, do you think she would still have gotten it?


The other thing about your post that I just want to clarify is where you say any further issues with it will be your issues and you will deal with them without her. You know your marriage best, so this may not apply, but I've found that when I withdraw about one thing, it becomes easier to withdraw about other things, and any withdrawing becomes a rift in the marriage. I have learned (through the 12-step healing program) that I need to turn toward my husband, even when it is uncomfortable or painful. I'm suggesting fear is driving this thought to withdraw. You want to keep it to yourself because you are afraid it will harm the relationship, hurt her, upset her. Maybe you are afraid of her reaction. Do you want to give fears like this a foothold in your marriage? (I'm not saying this is the case - like I said, only you know what is true in your marriage)

One last little note - you mentioned she was happy to talk about this and then ended up crying a lot and pulling back into herself. We both know that healing can be very painful. Maybe she is happy to talk about it, but it is painful and maybe healing at the same time. And after a heavy discussion and a lot of tears, pulling back into herself might just be an emotional "recovery" from the heaviness of it all. So this might not be a bad thing...

Praying for you and your wife.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Thanks VG. I always appreciate your input. It is always level-headed and full of wisdom.

If she knew how much the tat would have bothered me, she would not have gotten it. She did say that this morning. And then I stepped in it and said, "But right now I'm actually glad you got it, because it has forced me to deal with this stuff (meaning the wound)." That was when she really broke down and asked me why I wanted the apology if I was glad she got it. The conversation kinda broke down after that.

I do want to clarify one thing: I didn't mean I would handle all future problems in our marriage myself, I meant specifically this one involving the tattoo. IOW, she has said her piece, I have said mine (I think) and going forward, it's a matter of us working on out own junk.

Update: She's completely closed off to me. She's back in the guest bedroom, says she does not want to celebrate our 5 year anniversary at all (Oct 4th), doesn't want to be near me, talk to me, or want me to even get her some kind of gift (which I've already gotten). She said I've been a real jerk. Which caused me to reflect on everything that has happened. That statement made me realize that I never apologized to her for becoming a very selfish person. This issue in the past has turned me into a very selfish person, caused me to pull away from the other person and largely treat them like crap in passive aggressive ways. I recognized the pattern in myself, and after a few minutes of thinking (and picking my words carefully), I owned up to being a jerk and apologized for it. I recognized and justified her POV and feelings, and apologized for hurting her in this way.

If this were the past, I would never have even tried to work on this stuff. All of that old irrational junk would have overcame me (like it did), turned me into the selfish jerk, but I would have never come out of it. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to hurt my wife, nor cause our relationship to end.

After apologizing, I gave her the space she needs. All I can do at this point, I think, is continue to reflect, work on myself, and hope for the best.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Well I was going to post a comical thing but seeing your update I better not. Something alone the lines of "What doesn't kill the marriage only makes it stronger!".

Well I'd just give it some time. You're both hurting but time heals things. I think VG summed it up really. Your in our prayers too.

 

[Audiomechanic]

It just stinks because we were planning a trip to west Texas for our anniversary and were going to make the account transfer and book today. Looks like that ain't happening.

 

[ValleyGal]

The trip may be cancelled for now, but maybe you can go another time.

She says she does not want anything special for your anniversary, but if you can, plan something anyway, and give her the gift you bought for her.

Have you ever heard of the Love Dare? I know you are doing all you can at this point, and she needs a little space, but during those times she needs space, she also needs to know that you still love her deeply and that you are patiently waiting for her to come out of her quiet time. The premise of the Love Dare is to find one meaningful way every day of saying "I love you" - and not expecting anything in return. It may take a while to soften her heart, but a patient and loving approach couldn't hurt.

Personally, I wish she would not sleep in a different room...do you know why she does this? Imo, it's a lot easier to nurture a soft heart when you share a bed, and easier to nurture a hard heart when that physical "apartness" happens. Hopefully she is using that time in another room to pray and to explore her own feelings and issues. Maybe that's what she needs right now, but hopefully it does not become a regular occurrence in your marriage. Would it help to get a one-bedroom place instead, where she won't have that option?

Even still, my thoughts and prayers are with you....it's a tough time, especially around your anniversary.

 

[seeingeyes]

That was when she really broke down and asked me why I wanted the apology if I was glad she got it. The conversation kinda broke down after that.

That's a really good question actually...

 

[Audiomechanic]

That's a really good question actually...

I wanted the apology to appease the part of me that felt bitter because I had been hurt. Because my feelings were hurt. In hindsight, I am glad all this happened because it forced me to deal with this stuff, but at the same time, she did hurt my feelings and an apology seems warranted in my mind whether or not it ended up being beneficial.

Kind of like, if I hit my friend's car accidentally, and he ends up getting a check from the insurance company and replaces his car with one he actually wants more than the one he had, in hindsight it ended up being a good thing. But I'd still apologize for hitting his car in the first place.