Help an Agnostic who wishes to find God

[SeekingAgnostic]

prayer.

That's just talking in my head to no one. He doesn't talk back.

 

[drich0150]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I can't help to notice that so many of you are misinformed about things such as the formation of the solar system, the beginning of life, and evolution. It's kind of disconcerting when people's arguments for God cite false science as backing.

The temperature of the earth has more to do with its atmosphere than the sun (the greenhouse effect), the universe can exist with the laws of physics which allow us to exist simply because if we it didn't we wouldn't be here to see it, procreating molecules WILL eventually form on one of billions of planets in the universe (we inevitably will exist on one of them), and evolution does not require "missing links", it happens very gradually and only small changes happen over tens of millions of years. There are no real missing links, the creatures flow into each other over millions and millions of years of natural selection.

With that said, I would like to point out that I don't KNOW that those theories are true and I don't absolutely believe them to be facts. I think that they could definitely be wrong, but I find them to be more acceptable than, say, Scientologist beliefs, because science is falsifiable. Science can be TESTED and does not have to be taken without proof.

I'm also curious how a Christian could believe in evolution. If they did, they would believe that humans evolved from simple organisms over millions and millions of years, which would conflict with the idea that God created man in his image, and that earth was created in a relatively short timespan.

Also, how can Christians believe that humans are created in God's image when we share 98% the same as a chimpanzee's? Why are there fossilized Neanderthals, etc, that look very similar to humans and also predate humans? How can Christians refute carbon dating which proves the Earth is much older than said in the Bible, and that dinosaurs and other ancient species existed long before humans?

I can accept the possibility that a God created the laws of physics and just let the universe play out, but that theory is no different than having no creator at all and doesn't really answers any questions.

These statements all still boil down to simple faith, in truth you can only say you believe that you are looking at a seamless example of natural selection and are not looking at examples several extinct species who all share a similar shape. After all chimps and humans are 98% the same. So are Chickens and eagles, but this doesn't mean a chicken is a direct descendant of an eagle.

If you truly want answers then ask God, as it has been outlined by scripture.

 

[Sojourner1]

Also, how do I get to know God? Is there a way of communicating with Him directly?

God can communicate to you through His word, through other believers, and through the Holy Spirit. If you are truly seeking God then He will hear you and answer you.

 

[drich0150]

That's just talking in my head to no one. He doesn't talk back.

If you do not seek, if you can not muster the same faith in God as you put in your education and in turn your educators then know, you will never be able to exceed the limits your educators have place on you. You will always be bound by how others have taught you to think.

For example to you prayer is talking in your head, Because that is what you have been taught, and to you in your current form you will not get the answers you demand. If you humble yourself to God then He will indeed lift you up.

 

[SeekingAgnostic]

You guys actually hear God's voice talking to you?

Also, Eagles and Chickens share a common ancestor. Obviously they're not the same.

 

[Sojourner1]

You guys actually hear God's voice talking to you?

Also, Eagles and Chickens share a common ancestor. Obviously they're not the same.

God's voice has never been audible to me. I have "heard" God's voice in my conscience but this has only happen on a few rare occasions. These occasions were significant and I know the "voice" in my conscience was not my own.

 

[drich0150]

You guys actually hear God's voice talking to you?

Also, Eagles and Chickens share a common ancestor. Obviously they're not the same.

You observation is made through the benefit living in a time period in which both of these species live. Now what if there was only incomplete fossils found of these two birds? What would you believe then? I should guess you'd believe anything your educators told you to believe. (or so says your poster board responses.) Why? Because you have "faith" in them and in their word.

This is the same faith we are to have in God.

As to your "guess" of the nature of the relationship we have with God, is also modeled after how you have been trained to think. You have been limited in your understanding to assume that God has to speak to you audibly, in order for their to be understanding.. When you get tired of guessing, or simply stumbling around with answers that do not fit your current model of understanding. Try and approach God on your own, and find out for yourself. I have left complete instructions as to how to do this on your own.

That is If you truly do "seek" honest answers as you have indicated..

 

[kenblaster5000]

You guys actually hear God's voice talking to you?

Also, Eagles and Chickens share a common ancestor. Obviously they're not the same.

After I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and started speaking in a language I never learned, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and said "I will quicken you." At about the same time I was a bit rude to a customer in the restaurant and told a waitress to greet someone is not my job as a cook. The Holy Spirit corrected me by saying "Be hospitable." Those are just a few times, and have gotten many other words of revelation in which He wanted me to learn about. The word comes alive so much that I had a vision my bible lifted off the coffee table and was inserted into my heart through a slit in my chest. He is much better than an acid trip and He adds no sorrow with it.

 

[SeekingAgnostic]

The difference between things taught by science and those believed on pure faith is that scientific theories have been tested and are falsifiable, while beliefs based on faith are not.

If any scientific theories are disproven, I will not believe them any longer, but for some reason people who have "faith" will continue to believe things which do not agree with facts.

 

[kenblaster5000]

The difference between things taught by science and those believed on pure faith is that scientific theories have been tested and are falsifiable, while beliefs based on faith are not.

If any scientific theories are disproven, I will not believe them any longer, but for some reason people who have "faith" will continue to believe things which do not agree with facts.

When I have a vision or word, I ask if it is from God, ask for confirmation, and He will give utterance to someone I know to give me confirmation from Him. I have also gotten information that is confirmation for others. It is one method that He glues us together in the body of Christ. We need one another, this builds love and trust, and that love between us shows that we are the children the manifest sons and daughters of God. Just stick some of this information in the back of your mind later when it starts happening to you. He recollects to us what we have been taught.

 

[SeekingAgnostic]

When I have a vision or word, I ask if it is from God, ask for confirmation, and He will give utterance to someone I know to give me confirmation from Him. I have also gotten information that is confirmation for others. It is one method that He glues us together in the body of Christ. We need one another, this builds love and trust, and that love between us shows that we are the children the manifest sons and daughters of God. Just stick some of this information in the back of your mind later when it starts happening to you. He recollects to us what we have been taught.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[Emmy]

Dear SeekingAgnostic. You had some good replies, may I add two more answers. The Old Testament is a History of the Israelites and their Prophets, and God wanted to establish His Kingdom. They were surrounded by Heathen-Tribes with their cruel gods. In time Jesus came, and Jesus showed us God as He really is, a loving Heavenly Father who wants us back again. Another answer is: If you really want to know God, ask God to help you find Him. Jesus told us: " ask and you will be anwered, seek and you will find." Talk to God in Prayer, tell Him your thoughts and wait and see what happens. God has many ways to talk to us, often it is a still small voice, or some happenings only you will know what they mean, keep trusting God and wait and see. I say this with love, dear Seeker. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Harry3142]

SeekingAgnostic-

Let's take one subject at a time. We'll start with the creation stories (there are two).

The people to whom these stories were written were the Hebrews who had just left Egypt after dwelling there for decades, if not centuries. They had been totally immersed in the egyptian religion, which had well over 40 different gods and goddesses in its pantheon. And every one of those gods and goddesses could be described physically via using the sun, the moon, the stars, or some animal that they were familiar with.

Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 methodically 'stripped' the divine attributes from everything and every animal that could be seen. The sun, moon, and stars were merely objects created to give light. The animals were merely animals. God alone was worthy of worship, and he could not be seen, so no idol could ever be made of him.

Genesis 2:3-25 (the second creation story) promoted Man to a unique level with God. Egyptian mythology had stated that the first 5 days were devoted totally to gods and goddesses creating other gods and goddesses, with Man and all the other animals being created on the sixth day almost as an afterthought. You can read the story here:

www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml

Genesis 2:3 to 2:25 elevated Man to a status not shared by any other animal. Only Man could converse directly with God. Only Man was given the authority to name all the other animals. Only Man was given a special location where he was to live. Only Man had a helpmate created by God in a unique manner. And only Man could deliberately choose to disobey God.

As for the beginning of this solar system, I believe that it is about 5 billion years old. But I also believe that God has taken an active role in its construction from the very beginning. It's called 'intelligent design'.

One case in point is Mercury. Scientists weren't too excited about the closest planet to our sun until the Messenger satellite went near it. Then the gravity measurement equipment on the satellite picked up something totally unexpected. Mercury's gravity pull was far more powerful than the scientists had believed it to be. They studied the information that the satellite had given them, and came to an interesting conclusion:

Mercury is not a planet in the accepted sense. Instead, it's the metal core of what either was once a planet of 2X earth's size, or it's the metal core of a planet that did not form, but should have. So they have two questions to ask themselves. (1) If it formed, which according to science it should have, what happened to it? There's no debris field. (2) If the planet didn't form, why not? Mercury's gravity is great enough so that it should have condensed the stellar dust and gasses quite effectively. To us Christians who accept God's handiwork, this is simply another example of his 'finetuning' the solar system for us.

Another case in point is evolution. Even though there are some who are claiming evolution as fact rather than as theory, they are running into problems with, of all things, further scientific discoveries. There is evidence, some newly discovered, that there have been extinction level events which have occurred as recently as 70,000 years ago. Since the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago there have been at least 10 other events, each of which would have plunged this planet into subfreezing temperatures year-round for from 3 years to well over a decade. If the heat and the blast didn't kill you, the cold would.

Their only answer has been, "A few people survived. otherwise we wouldn't have evolved into who we are today." That is called a 'circular' argument. You cannot claim that an event which clearly was capable of killing all land-based life did not succeed in killing that life because if it had, a pet theory would be proven false. That's a rationalization, not an argument. They need to show evidence speicifcally related to a successful survival of land animals, including Man, through conditions guaranteed to cause extinction.

And as for Man, there is no other creature on earth which identifies certain activities as good, and other activities as evil. Only Man has set up laws governing his interrelationship with his fellow man. Only Man has even gone so far as to ask the question, "Is there a God?" We are unique in that regard. But why are we unique? Some scientists say that it's just 'faulty wiring' in our brain, but I don't think so. I believe that when God created us, he did so with an extra 'part' which enables us to recognize and accept that he is indeed God, and we are indeed his people.

 

[drich0150]

The difference between things taught by science and those believed on pure faith is that scientific theories have been tested and are falsifiable, while beliefs based on faith are not.

If any scientific theories are disproven, I will not believe them any longer, but for some reason people who have "faith" will continue to believe things which do not agree with facts.

If you see this as a weakness then why do you seek this for yourself?

Are you misrepresenting your intentions here?

 

[visionary]

The only real answers that will satisfy your heart will come from God Himself. It is an experience that He promises is available to all who ask.. Rev 3:20.. Put your finder on this promise and ask Him how.. and let Him teach you out of His Word.

 

[bling]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I can't help to notice that so many of you are misinformed about things such as the formation of the solar system, the beginning of life, and evolution. It's kind of disconcerting when people's arguments for God cite false science as backing.

The temperature of the earth has more to do with its atmosphere than the sun (the greenhouse effect), the universe can exist with the laws of physics which allow us to exist simply because if we it didn't we wouldn't be here to see it, procreating molecules WILL eventually form on one of billions of planets in the universe (we inevitably will exist on one of them), and evolution does not require "missing links", it happens very gradually and only small changes happen over tens of millions of years. There are no real missing links, the creatures flow into each other over millions and millions of years of natural selection.

With that said, I would like to point out that I don't KNOW that those theories are true and I don't absolutely believe them to be facts. I think that they could definitely be wrong, but I find them to be more acceptable than, say, Scientologist beliefs, because science is falsifiable. Science can be TESTED and does not have to be taken without proof.

I'm also curious how a Christian could believe in evolution. If they did, they would believe that humans evolved from simple organisms over millions and millions of years, which would conflict with the idea that God created man in his image, and that earth was created in a relatively short timespan.

Also, how can Christians believe that humans are created in God's image when we share 98% the same as a chimpanzee's? Why are there fossilized Neanderthals, etc, that look very similar to humans and also predate humans? How can Christians refute carbon dating which proves the Earth is much older than said in the Bible, and that dinosaurs and other ancient species existed long before humans?

I can accept the possibility that a God created the laws of physics and just let the universe play out, but that theory is no different than having no creator at all and doesn't really answers any questions

I agree you have read some pretty bad science on this tread but where did you get this:[/
“…procreating molecules WILL eventually form on one of billions of planets in the universe (we inevitably will exist on one of them)”

I have a master’s in Chemistry and have not heard any scientist try to defend that idea among his peers.

Also: “…the universe can exist with the laws of physics” Who wrote those laws
You change up any of those laws just slightly and stars do not form.

 

[oi_antz]

If you are looking for “scientific proof” to the existence of God there is none and never will be on this earth. The reason God remains hidden to the skeptic and is never beyond the shadow of all doubt, is because of the need man has for faith in helping man to fulfill His objective.

Hi Bling,

What do you understand mankind's objective to be, I have often wondered this..

 

[SeekingAgnostic]

SeekingAgnostic-

As for the beginning of this solar system, I believe that it is about 5 billion years old. But I also believe that God has taken an active role in its construction from the very beginning. It's called 'intelligent design'.

One case in point is Mercury. Scientists weren't too excited about the closest planet to our sun until the Messenger satellite went near it. Then the gravity measurement equipment on the satellite picked up something totally unexpected. Mercury's gravity pull was far more powerful than the scientists had believed it to be. They studied the information that the satellite had given them, and came to an interesting conclusion:

Mercury is not a planet in the accepted sense. Instead, it's the metal core of what either was once a planet of 2X earth's size, or it's the metal core of a planet that did not form, but should have. So they have two questions to ask themselves. (1) If it formed, which according to science it should have, what happened to it? There's no debris field. (2) If the planet didn't form, why not? Mercury's gravity is great enough so that it should have condensed the stellar dust and gasses quite effectively. To us Christians who accept God's handiwork, this is simply another example of his 'finetuning' the solar system for us.

There are many scientific theories that could explain how Mercury could have formed. Just saying "God did it" doesn't explain anything. Should we just blame God for everything we don't know yet? If we did this, society would never advance. I don't believe a God must have a hand in EVERYTHING we don't understand yet.

One theory argues that the bright, extremely hot young Sun played a role in vaporising away rocky material on the surface of Mercury as it was in the process of forming. This would mean that Mercury would be predominantly made of metallic material that had (by then) formed a substantial core; any elements and chemicals that could be easily vaporised and blown away would be notably absent or depleted in the Mercurial geology.

Another suggestion, according to NASA scientists, says that when the Sun and all the planets were forming in the solar nebula (the great cloud of dust and gas around the young Sun), tremendous amounts of gas could have had an important role in deciding what materials Mercury formed out of. To understand this let’s look at a simplified view. Rocky particles (silicates) in the solar nebula, when the planets were forming, were much lighter than their metallic counterparts. As such the gas around our star was able to whisk the lighter particles away and into the Sun, effectively sieving out the lighter silicates in the material from which Mercury went onto form. What was left was a metal rich cloud from which Mercury formed.

Lastly then and perhaps the most exciting idea is that Mercury was smashed into by a large body after its formation. This scenario requires Mercury to have already formed in much the same was as the normal terrestrial planets. The layers in Mercury’s internal structure would be fairly well defined by this stage rather than a mix of all sorts of material. It would have a metallic core with a rocky (silicate) crust and mantle (similar to the Earth’s structure). The theory says that a large body (like a rogue proto-planet) might have collided with the young Mercury blasting away its crust (and much of its mantle) leaving the mostly metallic material at its centre. (Think of it as smashing a boiled egg so that the shell and the white fly away leaving a little yellow core.)

So the answer to the question of ‘How did Mercury get so dense?’ is…we just don’t know yet.

Another case in point is evolution. Even though there are some who are claiming evolution as fact rather than as theory, they are running into problems with, of all things, further scientific discoveries. There is evidence, some newly discovered, that there have been extinction level events which have occurred as recently as 70,000 years ago. Since the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago there have been at least 10 other events, each of which would have plunged this planet into subfreezing temperatures year-round for from 3 years to well over a decade. If the heat and the blast didn't kill you, the cold would.

Their only answer has been, "A few people survived. otherwise we wouldn't have evolved into who we are today." That is called a 'circular' argument. You cannot claim that an event which clearly was capable of killing all land-based life did not succeed in killing that life because if it had, a pet theory would be proven false. That's a rationalization, not an argument. They need to show evidence speicifcally related to a successful survival of land animals, including Man, through conditions guaranteed to cause extinction.

You can't guarantee an ice age would cause man's extinction. One thing that makes humans very special is that they can adapt. There are humans that have lived in the Arctic for centuries, which would be similar to Ice Age conditions.

Even if humans did go extinct, this still contradicts the Bible because there would have been animals living millions of years before humans were ever created.

And as for Man, there is no other creature on earth which identifies certain activities as good, and other activities as evil. Only Man has set up laws governing his interrelationship with his fellow man. Only Man has even gone so far as to ask the question, "Is there a God?" We are unique in that regard. But why are we unique? Some scientists say that it's just 'faulty wiring' in our brain, but I don't think so. I believe that when God created us, he did so with an extra 'part' which enables us to recognize and accept that he is indeed God, and we are indeed his people.

All animals identify behaviors as either good or bad. The simplest idea is reproduction is good, death is bad. That is what drives life at its core. All "Good" things, are evolutionarily advantageous, whereas all "Bad" things would put humans at an evolutionary disadvantage and would take these behaviors out of the gene pool.

We shouldn't immediately look to God for answers when we discover an unknown. Why not figure it out ourselves?

-Seeking Agnostic

 

[brinny]

would you kindly respond to my question in post #17?

Thank you.

 

[Harry3142]

By using the word 'shouldn't' in your reply you have shown me a predisposition towards judging against any and all who don't leave God out of what has happened, is happening, or will happen in the future. But reality as we Christians see it cannot, and will not, do that.

There are events which science simply cannot explain. A Bible that survives a house fire that destroys every piece of furniture in the room, including the table it was sitting on; a young person who stared into the sun too long, destroying his retinas, only to have his sight return a few months later; these are just two examples of incidents that have occurred which science cannot explain (both these incidents were reported by national news organizations, which had no connection whatsoever with any religion).

In 1963 two atheists and I discussed for over 8 hours why we each believed as we did. I was a Christian then, and they were atheists seeking to 'convert' me to their way of thinking. To them science already had all the answers; it explained everything from the Big Bang to the present day. God was a myth; good and evil were nothing more than judgements designed to keep the ruling elite in power and reduce all others to abject subservience. If we could get rid of all religions and embrace science as our 'god' then we would all be better off.

But reality dictates otherwise. Read what happens when a society believes that there is no higher power whom it must answer to:

The attempt made in recent decades by secularist thinkers to disengage [the moral principles of western civilization] from their [scripturally based] religious context, in the assurance that they could live a life of their own as a "humanistic" ethic, has resulted in what one writer has called our "cut-flower culture." Cut flowers retain their original beauty and fragrance, but only so long as they retain the vitality that they have drawn from their now-severed roots; after that is exhausted, they wither and die. So with freedom, brotherhood, justice, and personal dignity - the values that form the moral foundation of our civilization. Without the life-giving power of the faith out of which they have sprung, they possess neither meaning nor vitality. Morality ungrounded in God is indeed a house built upon sand, unable to stand up against the vagaries of impulse and the brutal pressures of power and self-interest. (Will Herberg, Judaism and Modern Man, as quoted by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin in his book Jewish Wisdom, page 291)

And it would be wise of us to heed the message, and the warning, which is in an old Yiddish maxim:

"When you are riding in a horse and wagon and pass the door of a church, if the driver does not cross himself, get off immediately."