Hellfire/Divine Justice

[Lifesaver]

Would you like to back this up with something? Why would they "absorb" these [often pagan] women into their society when God specifically said not to [remember King Solomon?].

God is quite clear in His words.
The burden is on you to prove He meant anything sexual (as is often thought), because THAT would be against His words.

You still need to explain why at times only the virgins were spared from "punishment". Also, God could easily punish these nations w/o having the hebrews attack them.

They were not yet tainted by the lust and perversion that was often the norm in so many of these ancient nations.
Yes, He could have punished cities in many different ways.

 

[Lifesaver]

Leviticus Chapters 1 - 9 deal with animal sacrifices, and very bloody ones at that.

So, you think sacrificing animals is cruelty, do you? Perhaps you should study a bit more on the history of your religious beliefs...

Anyway, cruelty towards animals is hurting, abusing or killing them for the sake of deriving pleasure from their pain and from their death. If you kill it to eat, to make clothes, to protect your crops or to God (though He doesn't want sacrifices anymore), then it is not cruel.

 

[Routerider]

God is quite clear in His words.
The burden is on you to prove He meant anything sexual (as is often thought), because THAT would be against His words.

These virgin women were "awarded" to the soldiers for their efforts in battle....they are considered part of the "plunder" of war. They now owned these women...do you really think they were treated with the utmost respect and not touched in a sexual manner?

They were not yet tainted by the lust and perversion that was often the norm in so many of these ancient nations.
Yes, He could have punished cities in many different ways.

Being a virgin does make you immune to corruption. Also, the children would have probably been too young to be corrupt but they were slain by the sword...I think you have a few holes in your arguments.

 

[The_Supreme_Scholastic]

Your arguement...If one may call it one at that. As it has more to do with your attitude "oh no if God punishes people with Hell he must be so Cruel and that's not that kind of God I want to invision".

Is easy to refute. It's a logical fallacy to say Hell doesn't exist. If it didn't exist Christians would go to the same place as Satan and Demons. So God would be Unjust if Hell didn't exist as a reality.

God is Justice and does not give the same reward for a Evil deed as a Good deed...

If there is no Hell why bother live the Good Christian life?

 

[Spike~]

Is easy to refute. It's a logical fallacy to say Hell doesn't exist. If it didn't exist Christians would go to the same place as Satan and Demons. So God would be Unjust if Hell didn't exist as a reality.

Like you would know anything of logic?

And that's only a problem if you believe in Satan and evil demons.

God is Justice and does not give the same reward for a Evil deed as a Good deed...

You're God's sence of Justice is a little off kilter. Good ppl who don't believe burn, while bad ppl that do live forever in paradise.

If there is no Hell why bother live the Good Christian life?

Now you're catching on.

And as for that comment about my "religion" sacrifiing animals, that's not true. Wanna know why? Because I'm not religious. I'm spiritual, and many of my beliefs come from Buddhism and Paganism, which is why I alternate between the 2 icons.

Anyway, cruelty towards animals is hurting, abusing or killing them for the sake of deriving pleasure from their pain and from their death. If you kill it to eat, to make clothes, to protect your crops or to God (though He doesn't want sacrifices anymore), then it is not cruel.

Well, from the way the Bible makes it sound, those gory, brutal animal sacrifices made God all happy inside.

And how is killing an animal for God, or any deity not cruel? Or is it just not cruel for your God to require them, but if a Pagan does it, then it's cruel and barbaric?

 

[Hydra009]

It's a logical fallacy to say Hell doesn't exist.

That's weird, I've studied logical fallacies, and they never mentioned the "Hell doesn't exist fallacy".

If there is no Hell why bother live the Good Christian life?

So, the only motivation to be a good Christian is fear of eternal damnation?

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Personally I don't believe in an eteranl Hell but in a purgatory where we are purified of our sins so we can go and be with God in Heaven. (I don't know for sure, but I've often thought that it might be a "the shoe is on the other foot" scenario, that we relive our unrepented sins from the point of view of those we wronged. I mean what better way to learn our lesson, really?)

 

[Lifesaver]

These virgin women were "awarded" to the soldiers for their efforts in battle....they are considered part of the "plunder" of war. They now owned these women...do you really think they were treated with the utmost respect and not touched in a sexual manner?

I'm waiting for you to stop assuming things and show me the sexual intention of God's command.

Being a virgin does make you immune to corruption. Also, the children would have probably been too young to be corrupt but they were slain by the sword...I think you have a few holes in your arguments.

The male children were already corrupt. They were probably a society where males were introduced from very young to the perverted (not only sexual, but religious, ehthical, etc) practices and thus their minds were already perverted too. If they were in a stage where living with the Hebrews could turn them in good God fearing men, God would have commanded that they should be spared too.

It is indeed hard for secular and neo-pagan people to understand how the life in the ancient world (even outside the Middle East) was. The whole concept of punishment is becoming unbearable to you. But back then, life was harsh; it was violent; trust and honesty were held to the highest regard; no rules could be broken, and punishment had to be severe. Failing to do justice would result undoubtedly in great evil.
We, living in the West in the 21st century, don't like to think of a world like that, so different it was from ours (it is impossible for us to know how their mind and thoughts worked). It was a reality, though. And justice then had to be exemplary, or it wouldn't be justice at all.

 

[Routerider]

I'm waiting for you to stop assuming things and show me the sexual intention of God's command.

I cannot prove that these young ladies were abused sexually...you are correct. But what other conclusion should we come to...give me some ideas. What IS written is that the reason WHY these young ladies were spared is so that they could be *awarded* to the soldiers and even the Priest Eleazar. I think the silence is deafening in this story. Answer the following question, what would a male soldier need with a young girl? If you know the nature of men at all you already have your answer.

Also, remember how God punished David? God had his WIVES sleep with his neighbor in a public fashion, I don't think the Hebrew God had a problem with using sex as a reward or in this case a punishment.

The male children were already corrupt. They were probably a society where males were introduced from very young to the perverted (not only sexual, but religious, ehthical, etc) practices and thus their minds were already perverted too. If they were in a stage where living with the Hebrews could turn them in good God fearing men, God would have commanded that they should be spared too.

Now who is assuming? Again, you need to give some evidence for why young males would be corrupt and the young girls would NOT be...so far you have just asserted.

It is indeed hard for secular and neo-pagan people to understand how the life in the ancient world (even outside the Middle East) was. The whole concept of punishment is becoming unbearable to you. But back then, life was harsh; it was violent; trust and honesty were held to the highest regard; no rules could be broken, and punishment had to be severe. Failing to do justice would result undoubtedly in great evil.

I don't have a problem with punishment at all. I DO have a problem with ancient writers blaming their disgusting practices on God. The God that 21st century Christians advertise is NOT the tribal God of the Hebrews.

We, living in the West in the 21st century, don't like to think of a world like that, so different it was from ours (it is impossible for us to know how their mind and thoughts worked). It was a reality, though. And justice then had to be exemplary, or it wouldn't be justice at all.

You make some confusing remarks. We LOVE to explore the ancient past...watch Nat'l Geo sometime...we are not afraid of the past. Yes we do know how their minds and thoughts based on their writings and the artifacts they left behind. Look at what we know of the ancient Egyptians and the Mayans.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Anyway, cruelty towards animals is hurting, abusing or killing them for the sake of deriving pleasure from their pain and from their death. If you kill it to eat, to make clothes, to protect your crops or to God (though He doesn't want sacrifices anymore), then it is not cruel.

I was just wondering how you know what he does/doesnt want?...

 

[Charles Darwin]

Your arguement...If one may call it one at that. As it has more to do with your attitude "oh no if God punishes people with Hell he must be so Cruel and that's not that kind of God I want to invision".

then you misunderstand the attitude. Its not "if he even uses a hell he's is not the kind i wish to follow" its actually "if he uses the fire and brimstone hell then he is not the kind i wish to follow"

the argument initially started not on whether or not it exists, but on the nature of hell and how punishment is decided and what kind of punishment.

 

[dlamberth]

Sometimes war is just.

Generally, it is not though.

..

 

[dlamberth]

Read "Heaven & Hell" by Ed Donnelly, it'll help ya understand this important doctrine.

Fortunally doctrine are only images defined by man and up for disagreement. Doctrine is not what actually happens. No one has been to Hell, so all any living human being has are mental images..and doctrine.

..

 

[Lyle]

How can such a god be called just?

I'll re-phrase a question towards you... What do you think being just means?

 

[Lifesaver]

I cannot prove that these young ladies were abused sexually...you are correct. But what other conclusion should we come to...give me some ideas. What IS written is that the reason WHY these young ladies were spared is so that they could be *awarded* to the soldiers and even the Priest Eleazar. I think the silence is deafening in this story. Answer the following question, what would a male soldier need with a young girl? If you know the nature of men at all you already have your answer.

They were brought to Hebrew communities and lived like normal women.
Plus, people would be stoned to death for breaking God's rules about sex.

There is not one little piece of evidence to show that the Jewish in the past got young girls as sex slaves in their wars, as you insist on claiming.

Also, remember how God punished David? God had his WIVES sleep with his neighbor in a public fashion, I don't think the Hebrew God had a problem with using sex as a reward or in this case a punishment.

Extra-marital and adulterous sex as reward?! Where??

Now who is assuming? Again, you need to give some evidence for why young males would be corrupt and the young girls would NOT be...so far you have just asserted.

You said that God was unjust, because He ordered for uncorrupt people to be killed in war.
I'm showing you that what you said isn't necessarily the case. It may very well be that, much like He did in Sodom, God was just in His punishment.
Since you have no evidence, this in itself can't be an evidence towards proving God is unjust.

I don't have a problem with punishment at all. I DO have a problem with ancient writers blaming their disgusting practices on God. The God that 21st century Christians advertise is NOT the tribal God of the Hebrews.

Our way of life has changed, but we read the same scriptures and agree on them...

You make some confusing remarks. We LOVE to explore the ancient past...watch Nat'l Geo sometime...we are not afraid of the past. Yes we do know how their minds and thoughts based on their writings and the artifacts they left behind. Look at what we know of the ancient Egyptians and the Mayans.

Indeed, we have an interest in exploring them. For some reason, most don't have an interest to learn how their lives required different behaviours and how justice was carried out differently than today (though with the same principles, ideals and values).

 

[Charles Darwin]

Indeed, we have an interest in exploring them. For some reason, most don't have an interest to learn how their lives required different behaviours and how justice was carried out differently than today (though with the same principles, ideals and values).

Really? No one has studied Hammorabi's Code? No body has looked into Roman laws? How about the laws in Medeival Europe?

 

[Lifesaver]

Really? No one has studied Hammorabi's Code? No body has looked into Roman laws? How about the laws in Medeival Europe?

*sigh*

I'm not saying no-one has studied them. If such was the case I couldn't even make my criticism.
What I'm saying is that many people look to Ancient Hebrews without making the least effort to understand their views, but rather take their extremely pacifist, politically correct liberal dogmas and apply on them.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Ah, them im at fault. sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[professor frink]

I'll re-phrase a question towards you... What do you think being just means?

Unfortunately, just is not really a discretely defined term. Its definition relies on ideas of moral correctness. So I'm not sure how to answer your question directly. All I can say is that murdering innocent women and children does not fall within most codes of moral correctness. Saying this already got me branded an ultra-extremist pacifist in this thread, but if thats what this idea makes me, then I will accept the label.

 

[Zao Raven]

My theory is that... well God didnt choose to punish or "torture" , if you will, man... Man decided to be tortured when adam tried to basicly over throw God.. it says in genisis..that when adam and eve sinned against God.. they disobeyed Gods one order and in doing so opened the gates to hell.... to torture and too eternal suffering i think that it was mans decision, by disobeying God, to be sentenced to such a death or such a life that they wish for death.... sin has always exisisted from the times of lucipher to the times of the present... that is exactly why God sent his only begotten son to live and die on this earth so that we may live and life an eternal life with him... and so by passing the offers that we have been offered to live with God.. we have opend and hopped in to our own coffin.. so it is truly our decision to be tortured or to gain a hevanly life....