Hellfire/Divine Justice

[Spike~]

Have you ever seen someone tortured?
Deliberate torture is sickening and abhorrent.
What,though, of torture inflicted by God?
This is exactly what is implied by the teaching of hellfire in many religions.

Imagine for a moment, A person is being roasted on a hot iron plate.
In his agony he screams for mercy, but no one listens.
The torture goes on and on, hour after hour, day after day,without pause.
After awhile would your heart go out to him? But what would you think of the one who is doing the torture?
Could he be a loving person?
Of course not!
Love is merciful, and shows pity
A loving father may punish his children, but he would never torture them.
Nevertheless, many religions teach that God tortures sinners in a hellfire. It is claimed that this is divine justice.
If that were true, who created that terrible place, and who is responsible for the excruciating pain that goes on there?
The answer is obvious: It would have t be God.
But can you actually accept this in view of what the Bible says about God at 1 John 4:8

God is LOVE

Would this God of LOVE actually inflict torture that even most humans with any measure of decency find revolting?
Surely not!

 

[Routerider]

[Southern accent] God doesn't send people to hell...people send themselves to hell [/southern accent]

Direct further inquiries to LorentzHA, she's a specialist in this area

 

[lady in waiting]

This is something I have a very hard time with. The thought that my friends ending up in hell is almost more than I can bear at times. I am praying and asking about this same thing because that just seems like a draastic punshiment but who am I to question his wisdom. I guess in a way I am questing him by praying.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Do not be afraid to question God? Children question their parents on many issues. My children do. I only fuss at them if their questioning is a stall tactic to avoid bed or is slowing us down when we have to be somewhere.

Questioning is fundamental to the learning process. You can question God and still be trusting.

Tinker

 

[Lifesaver]

This is getting old. We don't know how Hell is! We know it's far from God, and therefore infinitely worse. But will it be an eternity of constant burning in fire? Probably not, though it is pretty clear that suffering will exist.

God cannot be in the presence of sin. Sinners will see the joy of being with God, but will feel repelled by it, going forever further from Him, and delving more into their ephemerous substitutes (pleasure, anger, etc), wanting more everytime, and feeling always more guilty and bitter.

That's how I see it.

 

[Hydra009]

This is getting old. We don't know how Hell is!

It's true, we really don't.

It's interesting that the many of the conceptions of hell - Greek Hades, Dante's conception, the "purgatory" conception, John Edwards conception, and the modern "hell is separation from God!" conception seem to reflect nothing more than the mindset of its adherants.

 

[Lifesaver]

It's interesting that the many of the conceptions of hell - Greek Hades, Dante's conception, the "purgatory" conception, John Edwards conception, and the modern "hell is separation from God!" conception seem to reflect nothing more than the mindset of its adherants.

purgatory is not Hell at all.

Never was purgatory a conception of Hell, unless maybe in some little known heresy.

Anyway, yes, the actual characteristics of the "places" Hell and Heaven are up to each individual's mind, since no revelation was given to to specify them to a great level of detail.

But Hell has always been separation from God. This has never changed.

 

[Lyle]

God is LOVE

if you are not a Christian, He is not love towards you.. Yes, He loves you, but he Himself is not love.... But you forget that God is just...

 

[professor frink]

if you are not a Christian, He is not love towards you.. Yes, He loves you, but he Himself is not love.... But you forget that God is just...

Was god just in commanding the Isrealites to commit genocide killing women, children, hamstringing horses...the list goes on. How can such a god be called just?

//edited to correct the spelling of Isrealites.

 

[Lifesaver]

Sometimes war is just. This may be hard for some ultra-extremist pacifists to see, but it's the truth.

 

[reformedfan]

Would this God of LOVE actually inflict torture that even most humans with any measure of decency find revolting?
Surely not!

You either forget or ignore that people in hell don't "plead for mercy" they add to their sin. Their opportunity to plead for mercy is over, they know it, and hate God for it, continually sinning & adding to their sin. Hell, eternal suffing the punishment & full wrath of God is what all sin deserves at the hands of a holy God who can tolerate no sin.
Read "Heaven & Hell" by Ed Donnelly, it'll help ya understand this important doctrine.

 

[Spike~]

Perhaps wars can be just. But genocide isn't war. Slaughtering innocent womn and children isn't war. And allowing soldiers to take woman prisioners as their own is not an act becoming of an honorable warrior, nor does it reflect well on the Commander that allowed it. I have read enough of the Bible to know that Jehovah is anything but just.

 

[professor frink]

Sometimes war is just. This may be hard for some ultra-extremist pacifists to see, but it's the truth.

If your idea of "ultra-extremeist pacifists" is people who oppose the murder of innocent women and children and the torture of animals, then I am truly afraid. Is that what christianity is teaching?

 

[Routerider]

If your idea of "ultra-extremeist pacifists" is people who oppose the murder of innocent women and children and the torture of animals, then I am truly afraid. Is that what christianity is teaching?

I was kinda thinking the same thing

 

[Lifesaver]

First, "taking women as their own" meant not taking them as sex maids or anything as is usually implied, but absorbing them into their society.

Secondly, sometimes entire cities or even nations are guilty or accomplice of grave offenses (sins), and punishment is indeed just in these cases, especially when doing nothing would only make matters worse.
It's very easy to talk about peace in our age of intricate countries' relations, instant communication, technological warfare and nuclear deterence. Back then the survival of good very much depended on the exemplary punishment of evil.

Now, as for "torture of animals", this is exactly part of "extremist" views I meant. It is not in the Bible, and if you think it somehow condones that, you must be distorting some passages.

 

[professor frink]

First, "taking women as their own" meant not taking them as sex maids or anything as is usually implied, but absorbing them into their society.

Killing them did mean killing them though.

Secondly, sometimes entire cities or even nations are guilty or accomplice of grave offenses (sins), and punishment is indeed just in these cases, especially when doing nothing would only make matters worse.
It's very easy to talk about peace in our age of intricate countries' relations, instant communication, technological warfare and nuclear deterence. Back then the survival of good very much depended on the exemplary punishment of evil.

What did these women and children do that was so evil?

Now, as for "torture of animals", this is exactly part of "extremist" views I meant. It is not in the Bible, and if you think it somehow condones that, you must be distorting some passages.

I'm not distorting any passages so to speak. The bible is not my only source of historical information. In fact, I don't consider it to be a source of historical information.

 

[Spike~]

First, "taking women as their own" meant not taking them as sex maids or anything as is usually implied, but absorbing them into their society.

Anything to back that up?

Secondly, sometimes entire cities or even nations are guilty or accomplice of grave offenses (sins), and punishment is indeed just in these cases, especially when doing nothing would only make matters worse.
It's very easy to talk about peace in our age of intricate countries' relations, instant communication, technological warfare and nuclear deterence. Back then the survival of good very much depended on the exemplary punishment of evil.

Killing innocent women and children is never 'just'.

What I don't get, is that when God kills innocent ppl, he is somehow, "just", but when ppl like Hitler, Saddam and Stalin do the exact same thing, they are branded evil?

Now, as for "torture of animals", this is exactly part of "extremist" views I meant. It is not in the Bible, and if you think it somehow condones that, you must be distorting some passages.

Exodus 29: 11 - 27

Leviticus Chapters 1 - 9 deal with animal sacrifices, and very bloody ones at that.

 

[professor frink]

I believe there is also a reference to the hamstringing of horses, although it may take me a long time to find it...

 

[professor frink]

Some general quotes on genocide:
Deuteronomy 7:16 And you shall destroy all the peoples that the LORD your God will give over to you, your eye shall not pity them; neither shall you serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.
Deuteronomy 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes
Joshua 11:14 And all the spoil of these cities and the cattle, the people of Israel took for their booty; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any that breathed.
2 Kings 2:23-24: "And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
Numbers 31:1-18: "...And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

This god you call just?

 

[Routerider]

First, "taking women as their own" meant not taking them as sex maids or anything as is usually implied, but absorbing them into their society.

Would you like to back this up with something? Why would they "absorb" these [often pagan] women into their society when God specifically said not to [remember King Solomon?].

Secondly, sometimes entire cities or even nations are guilty or accomplice of grave offenses (sins), and punishment is indeed just in these cases, especially when doing nothing would only make matters worse.
It's very easy to talk about peace in our age of intricate countries' relations, instant communication, technological warfare and nuclear deterence. Back then the survival of good very much depended on the exemplary punishment of evil.

You still need to explain why at times only the virgins were spared from "punishment". Also, God could easily punish these nations w/o having the hebrews attack them.