Hell.....

[Colter]

Manson world?

Oops, should say "mansion"

John 14:2King James Version (KJV)

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

We will be resurrected in a specific place, the Bible indicates Hell would also be a specific place.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

If the answers in the Bible were so "clear," there wouldn't be 40,000 denominations and thousands of theological opinions, would there?

40,000 denominations =/= 40,000 theological differences

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

If you go to the Catholic section of that Wikipedia page, it lists a good 26 organisations which agree with each other completely on matters of doctrine. The difference is in their various traditions and the liturgy, which are about how they practise their faith and what the church service looks and feels like.

The Orthodox section lists a similar number, which also agree with each other on doctrine but have regional differences in their traditions and liturgies.

Just going to the Anglican, Reformed and Lutheran sections and you see them list many many churches, which in actual fact will have very similar if not identical doctrine. (Although there are a few churches that have now opened their doors to gay marriages so the unity isn't all there, but for the most part the churches listed will have the same doctrine.)

Often you'll have a denomination that simply isn't worldwide, they will be in one country even though they may very well completely agree with another denomination across the world in matters of doctrine.

Honestly I don't know what an exact estimate of the number would be, but the 40,000 is a gross exaggeration which includes regional and non-doctrinal differences. Imagine every country has their own country-specific denominations, and the number can soon get quite out of hand.

If you just look at the Wikipedia page's headings, it divides the groups into major subdivisions, this is where the major doctrinal differences actually come into play. In this case, it seems likely there are under 100 real divisions of Christianity, perhaps as small as 50, but if we want to be generous I wouldn't say over 500, maybe 1000 at a huge stretch with various small fringe groups. In terms of major groups which actually make up a significant proportion of Christians, it's less than 50.

 

[OrthodoxPhoebe]

God is not sadistic. God is love, and this uncreated light gives us time on Earth to prepare being in front of The Light of Divine Love. God does everything in his power to bring us to Grace, but he gave us FREE WILL, so God will not breech this in anyway which in itself is an amazing gift. We need to say Okay.. Your will be done God. Show me the way, and forgive me. We need to take his correction, so we can stand the Fire of God's Divine Love. Those who have no love in them or despise God will feel His love as a Fire. A spiritual fire. This is the understanding of the Saints.

I also believe we need to be compassionate towards those who do evil and pray for them, for they will end up in the spiritual fire. Remember what St. Paul states,
Ephesians 6:12:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Many of these people who are against God and/or do evil are possessed of demons. It was their own free will to allow themselves to be possessed, but we must pray for them, for demons are stronger than humans, and once they get a hold of someone, the person becomes a puppet to the demon. From what I see, almost everyone has some sort of demon possession in our world today. Some more some less. The demons are subtle. They try to match the person, so it will never look like some Hollywood movie scene. I believe this is the reason for seeing so much lawlessness and disregard for the neighbors in our time.

 

[OrthodoxPhoebe]

I disagree, I see it getting redefined quite a bit. At least on here it does and Christ does not say it is some ethereal place or a state of mid but a real place

Matt 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Matt 5:22

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

I still do believe in a real Hell were the wicked go

The original teaching of hell by the early church saints is that it is the state one's soul is in at the time of God's appearing. Since God is Love. Divine Love which is a fire, those who have prepared to see the uncreated Light of God by submitting to God to be changed into Christ will be in joy and will shine, and those who are without preparation will experience God as a fire. That is the early church father's understanding.

 

[OrthodoxPhoebe]

I also believe we need to be compassionate towards those who do evil and pray for them, for they will end up in the spiritual fire. Remember what St. Paul states,
Ephesians 6:12:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Many of these people who are against God and/or do evil are possessed of demons. It was their own free will to allow themselves to be possessed, but we must pray for them, for demons are stronger than humans, (It is when we are with Christ that we can 'command the spirits') and once they get a hold of someone, the person becomes a puppet to the demon. From what I see, almost everyone has some sort of demon possession in our world today. Some more some less. The demons are subtle. They try to match the person, so it will never look like some Hollywood movie scene. I believe this is the reason for seeing so much lawlessness and disregard for the neighbors in our time.

 

[expos4ever]

I understand that one can debate them but the ideas of hell fire for eternity come from the Bible.

That's not really an answer - the very question at issue (at least in some of the posts in this thread) is whether the Bible really does teach eternal hellfire.

 

[OrthodoxPhoebe]

My individual interpretation only. Your mileage may vary.

I think "real" and "literal" are two different things. My understanding of reading Scripture is that hell is a real place, but probably not a literal lake of fire. It's just that "spiritual things are spiritually discerned," and being on fire forever was the most terrifying imagery human beings could understand. If the Bible authors, inspired though they were, attempted to describe what hell is really like, we couldn't grasp it. It's too much for our understanding, and actually so much *worse* than being on fire forever. It was described that way to impress upon us that we do NOT want to be there.

And I agree with the above poster who said that God doesn't "put" anyone in hell. For those who don't love and worship God, and don't want to follow Him, Heaven would be an even worse torment than hell.

The fire is a spiritual one, so it is the spirit within the glorified body that is caught on fire. The glorified body stays glorified, and that is how those who are separated from God burn for eternity, for God, being Love, will give all a glorified body, but some due to their works will be burned up within their bodily glorification. The fire will burn from within them. The eyes of the soul will show who is in this state. That is my understanding through the Spirit.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The punishment is for ever, but tht doesn't mean they will have life eternal in hell, because the 2nd death is eternal.

Thanks for expressing your opinion as I pointed out in my original comment

 

[BobRyan]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

It is the Lake of Fire that you see in Rev 20 is a lake of "fire and brimstone" according to that chapter.

As Rev 14:10 points out "they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

Yet it is bounded by this Matt 10:28 "Fear He who is able to DESTROY both body AND soul IN fiery hell"

All of these are true - the torment precedes that final destruction.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem is that a physical place must, by definition, exist in the physical universe. And since we have not received our eternal bodies, there is no need for there to be a physical place.

There is no text in the Bible that says that people that go to hell - are given an eternal body.

If someone has such a text - they should post it.

 

[Goatee]

Mansion world may not be another 'world' as such though?

 

[BobRyan]

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Sodom and Gomorrah "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7 (kJv0

"are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." NASB

 

[Hieronymus]

MOD HAT

Annihilation theology is not allowed in Christian Only areas on CF.

Posts have been deleted and edited for this reason.

Wow... really..?
O, wait, Nicea over Bible...

 

[BobRyan]

MOD HAT

Annihilation theology is not allowed in Christian Only areas on CF.

Posts have been deleted and edited for this reason.

We will try to limit our comments to "just the Bible" if they get to anything that this area of the board might not allow.

if there are texts we need to avoid quoting - please let us know.

 

[BobRyan]

Wow... really..?
O, wait, Nicea over Bible...

The Nicean Creed is a pretty good summary statement of basic Christian doctrine and does not say anything about how long hell lasts.

Restrictions on that subject have nothing to do with the actual wording of the Nicean Creed.

 

[OrthodoxPhoebe]

No one who goes to hell - is given an eternal body

It is my understanding from the Spirit that everyone will get a glorified/eternal body, but the spirit they receive will
convict them, if they are not in a state of grace. This will create a fire within their body, and this
is how the fire is eternal.

 

[Goatee]

No point in 'punishment' if one does not feel the effects of it. Same as Eternal happiness!

 

[Hieronymus]

Nicea does not say anything about how long hell lasts.

Restrictions on that subject have nothing to do with the actual wording of the Nicean Creed.

Then where does this sillyness come from?

I mean COME ON, the topic is about hell...

i'm stooped..

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Then where does this sillyness come from?

From the Bible.

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.41 The Son of Man will send out his angels,and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

'weeping and gnashing of teeth' doesn't sound like people who are dead, but pretty conscious.

 

[Goatee]

From the Bible.

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.41 The Son of Man will send out his angels,and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

'weeping and gnashing of teeth' doesn't sound like people who are dead, but pretty conscious.

Agreed