Hell.....

[Nym]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

Now you know why the beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord, and you can see the results of this in the story of Adam. Where was Adam at, in fear.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

No one is saying Jesus will not judge; what is at issue us whether He will sent people to an eternity in flames. The Bible is replete with images of specifically restorative justice - a form of justice that has little to do with pointlessly sending people to an eternity of torment.

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[Hieronymus]

From what I read on the CF many present day scholars and people on here believe that they understand better what is written in the bible than those that wrote it. They make the same claims that the serpent in the garden made....God or His word doesn't really mean that. As for me and my house we believe what is written in the bible and that God is more than capable of preserving it. The bible states there is a place of eternal torment created for the rebellious angels so who are we to say it isn't so?

The punishment is for ever, but tht doesn't mean they will have life eternal in hell, because the 2nd death is eternal.

 

[Colter]

Colter, may i ask, what set you on your particular beliefs? Have you belonged to a denomination at all? Thanks

Sure, I grew up in a moderate Methodist church in a typical American family in a southern college town. I've always believed in God, I believed in Jesus, but I found Sunday school and church to be negative, depressing places. I would hear things that were annoying, inconsistent and primitive.....but I didn't care enough at the time to search deeper. At 22 years old, as the result of a life crisis, I was born again, born of the spirit. I joined a 12 step program for recovery from addiction. I began my search in earnest. My dad, in addition to being an average Christian, was a Urantia Book reader. I've studied both the Bible and the UB for 31 years.

I was married for 20 years, had 3 kids, attended a Presbyterian church in town then a smaller church in the country. Now I can listen to a sermon, take what sounds true and leave the rest.

 

[Goatee]

Sure, I grew up in a moderate Methodist church in a typical American family in a southern college town. I've always believed in God, I believed in Jesus, but I found Sunday school and church to be negative, depressing places. I would hear things that were annoying, inconsistent and primitive.....but I didn't care enough at the time to search deeper. At 22 years old, as the result of a life crisis, I was born again, born of the spirit. I joined a 12 step program for recovery from addiction. I began my search in earnest. My dad, in addition to being an average Christian, was a Urantia Book reader. I've studied both the Bible and the UB for 31 years.

I was married for 20 years, had 3 kids, attended a Presbyterian church in town then a smaller church in the country. Now I can listen to a sermon, take what sounds true and leave the rest.

Ok, thanks for that. Never heard of Urantia sorry (Will have to research that). Married 20 yrs so guess you not married anymore? Sorry to ask. Just ignore if too personal.

Looks like you have been close to Jesus for a very long time! Thats excellent.

 

[Stillicidia]

Hell is simply a spiritual place, Heaven is also a spiritual place. You can't see them unless God shows you. Just as you can't see Angels unless they appear to you.

 

[Colter]

Ok, thanks for that. Never heard of Urantia sorry (Will have to research that). Married 20 yrs so guess you not married anymore? Sorry to ask. Just ignore if too personal.

Looks like you have been close to Jesus for a very long time! Thats excellent.

Remarried for 2 years this month to a women who likes me. I wear a size 34/32 and XL shirt in case you were thinking of a belated gift.

 

[sculleywr]

and in reply to the op question.. is it real or not ?

Real does not require a place or location. Salvation is real, and has no physical place or location binding it down. God is real, and has no physical place or location binding Him down. Asking whether it is real is like asking if gravity is real.

 

[Colter]

The Bible as well as other religions speak of hell as a real place. It says the unsaved will be tortured for an eternity.

 

[sculleywr]

The Bible as well as other religions speak of hell as a real place. It says the unsaved will be tortured for an eternity.

The problem is that a physical place must, by definition, exist in the physical universe. And since we have not received our eternal bodies, there is no need for there to be a physical place.

Besides that, how can God be a loving torturer? The pain caused by love is always purposeful. It has a goal and intended result. There is nothing loving about torture. So if God is torturing people, rather than their pain being caused by their own unbelief, then God cannot be loving.

We should realize that God never said He causes the pain of Death. He simply states that the inevitable result of sin is death.

 

[Ronald]

Yes, that is how I view those words.

I find Revelation 14:10 fascinating.
You and others might find this spirit led commentary of that verse interesting:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#7

Reve 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,......................

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever
(Greek:.... unto the ages of the ages .....- see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

Notice please, in both instances, the subjects are tormented with fire and brimstone, and we have previously established what the fire and brimstone are. But Rev. 14:10 sheds further light, those are also tormented by and through another agency, which in reality sums up and constitutes the fire and brimstone, and that agency is THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB and the holy angels, or messengers. What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous.

You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adoph Eichmann.

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment.



.

Judgment day is a enacted by God . Jesus is is God, and will return not as a lamb but as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. God is love but also a God of justice. God sees all, He is everywhere. He gives life and He takes it away. Think about it, the most horrifying deaths ever experienced, He is right there.

 

[Light of the East]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

Have you read this article by Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros?

The River of Fire

 

[Light of the East]

Didn't say it was a dirty word. Sometimes we get carried away in our opinions and extrapolations when the Bible gives us straight answers.

If the answers in the Bible were so "clear," there wouldn't be 40,000 denominations and thousands of theological opinions, would there?

 

[Colter]

The problem is that a physical place must, by definition, exist in the physical universe. And since we have not received our eternal bodies, there is no need for there to be a physical place.

Besides that, how can God be a loving torturer? The pain caused by love is always purposeful. It has a goal and intended result. There is nothing loving about torture. So if God is torturing people, rather than their pain being caused by their own unbelief, then God cannot be loving.

We should realize that God never said He causes the pain of Death. He simply states that the inevitable result of sin is death.

As children of God our current material location is here on earth. Our next location will be on the Manson world where Jesus went to prepare a place for us.

Hell is spoken of as also being a place where people are tortured or tormented for an eternity.

I agree that God isn't that way, but we are talking about what the Bible teaches.

 

[sculleywr]

As children of God our current material location is here on earth. Our next location will be on the Manson world where Jesus went to prepare a place for us.

Hell is spoken of as also being a place where where people are tortured or tormented for an eternity.

I agree that God isn't that way, but we are talking about what the Bible teaches.

And I'm challenging the concept that we need to think of things in a material form when there is no evidence that there is even time in the next world. Without time, how does our existence look? We cannot know this. If we confine ourselves to the Scriptures, then we certainly could not say that they are being tortured by God or even that hell is a physical place. Since no physical place is currently necessary (as the bodily resurrection of all men has not happened, meaning those who are in eternity are purely noetic), there is no reason to think of things in a physical manner until they are fully revealed as such.

As it stands right now, our understanding of Heaven, Hell, and pretty much the majority of eschatology is completely speculative. We are like the Jews before Christ trying to guess at what the Messiah would be like. Thousands of theories, and no way to determine which is true.

 

[expos4ever]

The Bible as well as other religions speak of hell as a real place. It says the unsaved will be tortured for an eternity.

It is highly debatable as to whether the Bible claims the unsaved will be tortured forever:

1. Some of the relevant texts characterize the fire as eternal, and do not even address the matter of how long those tossed into the fire will continue to exist;
2. Re the other texts that suggest eternal torment: there is clear Biblical precedent for images of eternal destruction actually denoting temporally finite events. This raises the strong possibility that texts about eternal torment actual are intended to convey a punishment of finite duration.

 

[Colter]

It is highly debatable as to whether the Bible claims the unsaved will be tortured forever:

1. Some of the relevant texts characterize the fire as eternal, and do not even address the matter of how long those tossed into the fire will continue to exist;
2. Re the other texts that suggest eternal torment: there is clear Biblical precedent for images of eternal destruction actually denoting temporally finite events. This raises the strong possibility that texts about eternal torment actual are intended to convey a punishment of finite duration.

I understand that one can debate them but the ideas of hell fire for eternity come from the Bible.

 

[Goatee]

Our next location will be on the Manson world where Jesus went to prepare a place for us.

Manson world?

 

[Abraxos]

What's a Manson world?

 

[Truthfrees]

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