Hell.....

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Sounds a lot like a prophesy against OC Jerusalem in the 1st century

It says "Corpses" -- Which Malachi 4 tells us is in the form of "ashes" upon which the saints will walk................................

Until you read the details in the chapters being quoted -- for example Isaiah 66.

Is 66
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
24 “Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

It still appears to be OC Jerusalem in 70AD.
Look at the correlation between between these verses. I am sure the non-Christian Jews would understand it if only they believe in Jesus and read the NT, including Revelation. IMHO

Ezekiel 38:21
Then will I call against him every terror, declareth My Lord Yahweh.
The sword of every man against his brother shall be;
[Matt 10:34/Revelation 6:4]

Mat 10:21
“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

Reve 6:4
And came forth another horse, firey and to the one sitting on it was given to him to be taking the peace from the land and that one another they should be slaying
and was given to him a great sword.

Luke 21:24 "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led into captivity into all the Nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.

Reve 13:
10 If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight.................................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah

The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.
The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully................................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.



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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Linet Kihonge]

I'm having a problem with the translations of what these verses meant. Are you locking the verses on hell to a particular time frame, I thought the scripture was continuous throughout time. There were Verses that were meant to come to pass at particular times and verses that haven't come to pass such as new heavens and new earth.

 

[sculleywr]

Millennials can't accept the idea of Hell. Remember, they all got trophies just for showing up.

And this contributes to the conversation in what way? Sounds like you just want an opportunity to get in a cheap ad hominem and attack a political point that has absolutely nothing to do with anything serious. Millennials are not the only ones with an issue with the idea that an omnipotent God would summarily torture people for eternity.

Granted, I'm not saying hell isn't a real thing. I'm saying that the pain is not a result of outside infliction, but of internal self-affliction. It's like an autoimmune disease. My body is attacking my colon, not something from outside.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And this contributes to the conversation in what way? Sounds like you just want an opportunity to get in a cheap ad hominem and attack a political point that has absolutely nothing to do with anything serious. Millennials are not the only ones with an issue with the idea that an omnipotent God would summarily torture people for eternity.

Granted, I'm not saying hell isn't a real thing. I'm saying that the pain is not a result of outside infliction, but of internal self-affliction. It's like an autoimmune disease. My body is attacking my colon, not something from outside.

In large part, it's millennial who can't accept what the Bible has to say about Hell. My theory is that they have a warped of view of reality because they got participation trophies for showing up and had a daily dose of "self esteem" from parents, teachers, and media. This could help one understand why Hell does not fit their worldview.

Using scripture, very clear and easy to understand scripture, Hell is both a consequence of actions and a deliberate punishment from God. Any literate adult who holds that the Bible is authoritative can see that these are not debatable points. Scripture is very clear on this. In other words, God didn't leave this to the imagination.

 

[BryanMaloney]

What makes the specific attributes of damnation so important to quibble over? Can anyone explain this to me? How is this different from arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[Goatee]

Nobody really knows what hell is like. Some will find out i guess. Guess i will be there!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Nobody really knows what hell is like. Some will find out i guess. Guess i will be there!

Nobody really knows what Heaven is like either.

 

[sculleywr]

In large part, it's millennial who can't accept what the Bible has to say about Hell. My theory is that they have a warped of view of reality because they got participation trophies for showing up and had a daily dose of "self esteem" from parents, teachers, and media. This could help one understand why Hell does not fit their worldview.

Using scripture, very clear and easy to understand scripture, Hell is both a consequence of actions and a deliberate punishment from God. Any literate adult who holds that the Bible is authoritative can see that these are not debatable points. Scripture is very clear on this. In other words, God didn't leave this to the imagination.

Where does it say GOD CAUSES THE PAIN OF HELL? I've read the Bible more times than I can count. I have NEVER seen a single place where it says clearly that God causes the pain. It says the pain exists, but the cause of the pain is left out completely, so we are left with our own deductions to rely on, unless we want to go with the statement that the belief that came first is the truth. In that case, the pure-penal doctrine of hell is tossed out the window, having only really taken root in the 13th century.

The problem isn't what Scripture says, it's what people believe that Scripture doesn't say. Scripture says hell exists. It doesn't say that God intends people to perish in hell. Scripture says there is pain in hell. It doesn't say the pain is an intentional punishment from God.

As to participation trophies, I believe semi-state championships two years running in football, 21st place in the championships out of 500, and team captain of the regional academic olympics kinda makes the whole participation trophy mantra a little out of my wheelhouse, though I technically fall into the definition many people have of being a millennial. The problem is, in this case, Millennials are referring to a view of hell that's approximately 1200 years older than the divine torture view. So saying it applies only to them is leaving out millions of Christians throughout history who happen to have gone through a lot more persecution than even you could imagine.

The fact is that we haven't seen what anything beyond this earth is like for ourselves. To you, your view is just as obvious in Scripture as mine. It's called confirmation bias. In all reality, we could all be wrong, just like everyone that was there before Christ was pretty much wrong on what He would be like when He came. To them, their view of Christ as either a political leader, a military conqueror, or whatever else they thought was a plainly true as the statement that the sky is blue. But you cannot KNOW it to be true unless you can observe the IT that you're supposedly describing.

And so we are left asking ourselves a very important question: is it in the nature of God to cause pain that does not result in good?

 

[sculleywr]

What makes the specific attributes of damnation so important to quibble over? Can anyone explain this to me? How is this different from arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Well, when it comes to the question of whether God is torturing people or not, that is down to a question about the nature of God, which is pretty darn important if you ask me.

 

[Goatee]

As i have said before, its 'US' that choose hell, not God! It is 'US' that choose to suffer, not God!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Where does it say GOD CAUSES THE PAIN OF HELL? I've read the Bible more times than I can count. I have NEVER seen a single place where it says clearly that God causes the pain. It says the pain exists, but the cause of the pain is left out completely, so we are left with our own deductions to rely on, unless we want to go with the statement that the belief that came first is the truth. In that case, the pure-penal doctrine of hell is tossed out the window, having only really taken root in the 13th century.

The problem isn't what Scripture says, it's what people believe that Scripture doesn't say. Scripture says hell exists. It doesn't say that God intends people to perish in hell. Scripture says there is pain in hell. It doesn't say the pain is an intentional punishment from God.

As to participation trophies, I believe semi-state championships two years running in football, 21st place in the championships out of 500, and team captain of the regional academic olympics kinda makes the whole participation trophy mantra a little out of my wheelhouse, though I technically fall into the definition many people have of being a millennial. The problem is, in this case, Millennials are referring to a view of hell that's approximately 1200 years older than the divine torture view. So saying it applies only to them is leaving out millions of Christians throughout history who happen to have gone through a lot more persecution than even you could imagine.

The fact is that we haven't seen what anything beyond this earth is like for ourselves. To you, your view is just as obvious in Scripture as mine. It's called confirmation bias. In all reality, we could all be wrong, just like everyone that was there before Christ was pretty much wrong on what He would be like when He came. To them, their view of Christ as either a political leader, a military conqueror, or whatever else they thought was a plainly true as the statement that the sky is blue. But you cannot KNOW it to be true unless you can observe the IT that you're supposedly describing.

And so we are left asking ourselves a very important question: is it in the nature of God to cause pain that does not result in good?

Then the King will say to those on His left, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.” . . . These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:41, 46)
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A fire that God Himself has prepared sounds like He is not simply passive as you suggest.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
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"Scripture says hell exists. It doesn't say that God intends people to perish in hell." See above.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

As i have said before, its 'US' that choose hell, not God! It is 'US' that choose to suffer, not God!

Restating it doesn't make it true. How about some BIBLICAL evidence for your view?

 

[Goatee]

Restating it doesn't make it true. How about some BIBLICAL evidence for your view?

The life we choose determines where we go! That is obvious.

God gave man free will. We can choose our destiny.

 

[Hieronymus]

As i have said before, its 'US' that choose hell, not God! It is 'US' that choose to suffer, not God!

Nobody chooses hell, especially this idea of eternal life in torture.
One would be completely nuts to choose that.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The life we choose determines where we go! That is obvious.

God gave man free will. We can choose our destiny.

What do you mean by free will? Can man chose contrary to his nature? And, I'm still waiting for biblical backing to your assertion.

 

[Goatee]

Nobody chooses hell, especially this idea of eternal life in torture.
One would be completely nuts to choose that.

Think. If you live a life of sin, you are indeed choosing hell!

 

[sculleywr]

Then the King will say to those on His left, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.” . . . These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:41, 46)
​

A fire that God Himself has prepared sounds like He is not simply passive as you suggest.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
​

"Scripture says hell exists. It doesn't say that God intends people to perish in hell." See above.

Problem. This doesn't say that God is intentionally causing the pain. The interpretation that God's presence is felt as fire is completely compatible with both of your passages, considering that there are multiple passages that also describe God as a fire.

What the Scripture does not say is this "God is intentionally lighting people on eternal fire". It says he puts them in a place where they experience something as anguish and fire, but it does not say it is an intention of God for them to suffer. For one, in order for God to intend for people to perish in fire, God has to be "willing that some perish", but when I read that passage, Scripture said that God is not willing that ANY should perish.

Of course, if we are going to go with the double predestination Hellenistic Fatalism doctrine (yes, I named the source of Calvin's P as Hellenism because that is where it comes from), then it doesn't matter that we're even discussing this, because God's just a lottery draw.

Yes, I'm going directly to both roots of the problem. A being who causes pain with no goal at all except the pain itself is not capable of love. In fact, such a being flies in the face of the description of love in I Corinthians 13 and pretty much every description of love in Scripture. On the flip side, a being who programs people to be good or evil is not capable of love, either.