Hell.....

[vinsight4u]

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[Endtime Survivors]

How could there be a place that an omnipresent God isn't? wouldn't the definition of omnipresent exclude the possibility that there is a place without God?

Hi sculleywr. Good question, though I think we should come at these topics from the perspective of remembering just how little we really know about a being who is able to exist outside of space/time/matter. For example, just because God is able to exist everywhere doesn't mean he will. The concept of existence vs non-existence are mutually exclusive, at least in what they actually mean in terms of how we are able to comprehend them.

God exists which means he cannot be in a place of non-existence without changing our understanding of what both those concepts actually mean. For the purposes of eternal consequence, it does appear that just as God was able to create something from nothing, so too he can reverse the process. I believe that's what the concept of hell encapsulates.

 

[sculleywr]

Adam and Eve thought they could hide in trees.
Cain went from God's presence.

Did they mean God's glory or what? He dwelt between the cherubim on
the ark of the covenant. To speak with them.

2 Kings 24:20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.

1 Chronicles 16:33 Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

2 Chronicles 20:9 If, [when] evil cometh upon us, [as] the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name [is] in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.

out of My sight

It probably refers from the direct glory of God, and not His everywhere present nature. He sees everything that happens. He is present for every action we take. There is nowhere He isn't and nothing that could even exist without His willing its existence.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Sultan Of Swing]

God is Love, but He mercilessly tortures unbelievers eternally who didn't get it, or who He himself blinded in their puny 80 years on a wicked planet.

Why does this bother you so much? Do you not think us sinners are deserving of Hell? And do we deserve mercy? If we deserve mercy then it is no longer mercy.

If we don't deserve mercy, and we do deserve Hell, it is truly a wonder that God would save anyone at all, and pay such a heavy price.

 

[PapaZoom]

is to me .. . its very clear . children get it no problem at all . its only those who think they need to be all theological about it that get all knitted up over it

Good to know that you and the children get it with no problem (meaning you have the same understanding as a child) and yet seasoned biblical scholars don't find it easy to understand at all.

And of course your understanding couldn't be wrong. That's not a possibility.

 

[sculleywr]

Why do you think Ezekiel saw His throne as being carried or
such with wheels? There's manna is heaven. right? Is it the
same type of manna that those with Moses ate? Does this
mean angels eat? What about the ones locked up till judgment/
in chains of darkness, are they also hungry? What about the
fruits on the tree of life, will immortal people actually eat them?
If so, then they are some physical things in heaven?
tree of life
manna
The earthly sanctuary - Moses was told to make it after the pattern shown to him in the mount. The NT refers to a heavenly
sanctuary.

How about Enoch translated and went to heaven?

And what does all this mean. Have we ever seen a person translated? I don't know about you, but I've never seen it happen. How far did they have to travel through space before they arrived at heaven? Did their mass increase exponentially as they approached the speed of light to arrive at some place suitably far enough away from earth that we can't detect it with the umpteen million telescopes and detection devices that are able to see 92 billion light years away? Or did God create a miniature warp field around them when they were translated? What is matter even like in a world where time is not a thing? Remember, for matter to exist, it must vibrate, and to vibrate, there must be time, so matter as we know it couldn't exist in a world without the dimension of time.

So what existence in eternity is like is a mystery to anyone.

 

[topcare]

Why does this bother you so much? Do you not think us sinners are deserving of Hell? And do we deserve mercy? If we deserve mercy then it is no longer mercy.

If we don't deserve mercy, and we do deserve Hell, it is truly a wonder that God would save anyone at all, and pay such a heavy price.

Exactly, we all deserve Hell but because of Christ atonement we now have a means of Blessed Salvation should we so choose it.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[sculleywr]

What your idea is that something from heaven could be spiritual
there -such as manna...and on the way here -where time exists>
it became physical?
the tree of life was once here on the earth...now it is in heaven
Real people here ate manna from heaven.

Well, Jesus says the Eucharist is His Body and blood. If it isn't physically transsubstantiated (something Orthodox don't teach), then there must be a spiritual component that is being spoken of here, a reality that isn't measured in the empirical realm. Besides that, how could physical matter, which vibrates at particular frequencies and can only be seen because of light traveling through space in a set time, exist in a world with no time? Without time, there can be no heat, no light, no wavelengths or travel. This is coming from an understanding of physical matter granted by my obsession with studying physical matter, especially particles that make up matter. With the understanding that literally everything we experience is dependent on the existence of time, what would be the point of trying to understand what the three spacial dimensions are like in the absence of the temporal dimension?

 

[topcare]

Well now the Blessed Holy Eucharist i not the topic my friends

 

[sculleywr]

Well now the Blessed Holy Eucharist i not the topic my friends

I was usingit as an example, not as primary topic.

 

[topcare]

Ah, carry on then

 

[BobRyan]

You can use Jonah to show that the soul lives after death and there is a hell. Look at the end of Jonah chapter 1 and then see
how the next chapter goes back in time.
Jonah drowned and then was eaten by the fish.
He went to hell and prayed - then three days later or so wound
back up in his body that had been swallowed and prayed again.

.

Not quite.

Jonah 1
15 So they picked up Jonah, threw him into the sea, and the sea stopped its raging. 16 Then the men feared the Lord greatly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows.
17 And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

Jonah 2
Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the stomach of the fish, 2 and he said,

So in the fish "appointed by God" - but not dead.

from: http://www.reasons.org/articles/a-modern-jonah

A Modern Jonah
December 1, 1991
By Guest Writer


by Edward B. Davis, Ph. A


"A sailor swallowed by a whale," proclaimed the tract that fell out of Winona Echoes, an old volume on my shelf. The tract recounted the following remarkable story:

The whaling ship Star of the East was in the vicinity of the Falkland Islands, searching for whales, which were very scarce. One morning the lookout sighted a whale about three miles away on the starboard quarter. Two boats were manned. In a short time one of the boats was near enough to enable the harpooner to send a spear into the whale, which proved to be an exceedingly large one . . . . The whale ... beat about with its tail in the maddest fashion. The boats attempted to get beyond the reach of the animal, which was apparently in its death agonies, and one of them succeeded, but the other was less fortunate. The whale struck it with his nose and upset it. The men were thrown into the water, and before the crew of the other boat could pick them up, one man drowned and James Bartley had disappeared. When the whale became quiet from exhaustion the waters were searched for Bartley, but [he] could not be found; and, under the impression that he had been struck by the whale's tail and sunk to the bottom, the survivors rowed back to the ship. The whale was dead, and in a few hours the great body was lying by the ship's side, and the men were busy with axes and spades cutting through the flesh to secure the fat. They worked all day and part of the night. They resumed operations the next forenoon, and were soon down to the stomach .... The workmen were startled while laboring to clear it ... to discover something doubled up in it that gave spasmodic signs of life. The vast pouch was ... cut open, and inside was found the missing sailor, doubled up and unconscious. He was laid out on the deck and treated to a bath of sea water, which soon revived him ....

During the brief sojourn in the whale's belly, Bartley's skin, where it was exposed to the action of the gastric juices, underwent a striking change. His face and hands were bleached to a deadly whiteness, and the skin was wrinkled giving the man the appearance of having been parboiled ....

The whaling captains say that they never remember a parallel case to this before. They say that it frequently happens that men are swallowed by whales who become infuriated by pain of the harpoon and attack the boats, but they have never known a man to go through the ordeal that Bartley did and come out alive.
http://www.reasons.org/articles/a-modern-jonah

 

[BobRyan]

The wicked die now, but the soul does not.
Isaiah 66 ends with events as to the new earth and
the wicked dead are noted as their worm dieth not.

That is true. --


Isaiah 66
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”


Malachi 4
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

2 Peter 2
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Jude 7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Matt 10
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in fiery hell.

What do you think the part as to their worm dieth not means in the
end of Isaiah 66? their worm - their fire
It seems it is not the flesh part as they are abhorring to all flesh.

It is not specific about what the term means - but I grant that it is certainly unusual.

And yet 66 says this still results (after all is said in done at that future event) in corpses that may be seen - ashes of the wicked who are burned and turned into those ashes - ashes that are seen by the righteous in some form.

I would always argue that the 2nd death is in some way far worse than the first - no question about that.

So not just that you cannot be resurrected from it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I asked Him when was 15.. 55 now. Asked how can you send all these people to hell. Came right back with "for God so loved the world" Then said "everyone gets a choice". Believe it or not to force some to live forever with Him would be hell. Dont think we can know His GODS heart or pain. He made MAN. So the pain to watch one make that choice.. I cannt even grasp.

Look how JESUS preached... think talk act like that.

One thing we know for certain in Rev 14:10 all of the torment - all of the suffering takes place "IN the Presence of the Lamb and of His angels" Rev 14:10

Which brings us back to this -
Today at 6:26 PM #205

 

[BobRyan]

How could there be a place that an omnipresent God isn't? wouldn't the definition of omnipresent exclude the possibility that there is a place without God?

True - but in Rev 14:10 it is not just the omnipresent God - but the "not-at-all-omnipresent" angels of God. The wicked are right there -- in their presence for all of the suffering and torment. So also in Rev 14:1-6 are the saints with Christ.

Rev 10:10
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

 

[sculleywr]

True - but in Rev 14:10 it is not just the omnipresent God - but the "not-at-all-omnipresent" angels of God. The wicked are right there -- in their presence for all of the suffering and torment. So also in Rev 14:1-6 are the saints with Christ.

Rev 10:10
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Not disagreed here. But a good question is why would God cause their pain? Why would an all-loving God cause eternal torture, as many westerners believe (I have an SDA friend from school who said she had never been taught that God is the cause, so I'm not sure if this is something I'm simply talking at from a different angle and we're both saying the same thing)? Isn't it more likely that the pain is a result of their hatred for God? could they not hate God in such a way that they couldn't stand His presence?

 

[vinsight4u]

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