Hell

[Nihilist Virus]

But, that isn't what the Bible teaches. Eternal Conscious Torment is taught in the Scriptures.

Huh?

 

[Butch5]

Huh?

Sorry for the typo. That was supposed to say that Eternal Conscious Torment "isn't" taught in the Scriptures.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sorry for the typo. That was supposed to say that Eternal Conscious Torment "isn't" taught in the Scriptures.

So Jesus died for nothing?

 

[Butch5]

So Jesus died for nothing?

How do you draw that conclusion?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

How do you draw that conclusion?

Because Jesus died for our sins. But without hell, the punishment for our sins is nothing.

Are you going to say that the wages of sin is death, and that with Jesus we go to heaven forever, and without him we cease to exist?

Yeah, you're on the wrong thread as defined in the OP.

 

[Butch5]

Because Jesus died for our sins. But without hell, the punishment for our sins is nothing.

Are you going to say that the wages of sin is death, and that with Jesus we go to heaven forever, and without him we cease to exist?

Yeah, you're on the wrong thread as defined in the OP.

The wages of sin is death. However, I was not going to say we go to Heaven. As I said to the author of the OP, the premise of the OP is correct. Since ETC cannot be reconciled with a just God the idea of ETC is false. It can't be reconciled, that's the answer to the question in the OP. Here is the summation of the Op.

"In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?"

The answer is, you can't!

 

[ScottA]

There's almost as many conceptions of hell as there are Christians, but I want to talk about a very specific one, and ONLY that.

So if you believe that Hell is God's absence, or his presence as experienced through the mind of the unregenerate sinner, or annihilation, or a temporary place of purification, or a conundrum to be solved by trusting that a just God would find a way to do the right thing and save all - this thread might not be for you.

The conception of hell that I address here is a place of literal torment, where sapient beings are deliberately sent by God for failing to be as flawless as a deity, and where they'll spend eternity with no chance of redeption or mercy.

To me, such a conception of hell reflects *extremely* badly on the corresponding conception of deity, and no argument from authority ("who are YOU to question an all-powerful being?????") will resolve the matter.

So, if you believe that it is literally impossible for any of us to measure up to God's standard, and we are then punished for it - that's like torturing a dog with a branding iron for its failure to comprehend algebra. Or setting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.

And I'm sorry, but basically extending a pardon to all who wave the right party membership card doesn't solve the moral dilemma here, either, because people are still being sent to Cosmic Auschwitz.

In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?

Thank you for the "in short" version

The subject is reality: the reality of the fulfillment of what is written (regardless of how you may translate it). All said and done, it is a hard message. But that is because of where we are when we receive the message: we are in "this" place, where "that" reality, is not...but this is our only reference point. But that is not the truth of it. Telling some one a story about warm sunny beaches in a cold bus stop, doesn't actually raise the temperature, just the spirits...hopefully.

So, to answer the question...to properly reconcile the problem...we need to come in out of the cold: we need to separate ourselves from the worldly outlook on such matters and see it from the perspective of Gods (spirit) existence. Let's back up a minute...we are first born in the flesh and in the world and we hear the words of hell and we get the wrong idea. But, if we are born again of the spirit of God and we revert back to the words of hell in the flesh mind-set...we are not going to get it. No, we need to be born again of the spirit of God, and re-look at the matter in spirit and in truth. In the spiritual sense, eternity-anything, is like a lifetime...which is not true at all. No, looking at our eternity from our worldly perspective, is to say, "I will be." compared to God doing the same thing, saying, "I am." Big difference.

Let me put it this way: God said, "I am." Jesus said, "It is finished." Hell says, "You're finished."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The wages of sin is death. However, I was not going to say we go to Heaven. As I said to the author of the OP, the premise of the OP is correct. Since ETC cannot be reconciled with a just God the idea of ETC is false. It can't be reconciled, that's the answer to the question in the OP. Here is the summation of the Op.

"In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?"

The answer is, you can't!

Are you a closet Mormon/JW?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, we need to be born again of the spirit of God, and re-look at the matter in spirit and in truth.

So what you are saying is that we need to believe the Bible, then decide if it makes sense?

 

[Butch5]

Are you a closet Mormon/JW?

Not at all. I accept the Nicene Creed

 

[ScottA]

So what you are saying is that we need to believe the Bible, then decide if it makes sense?

No, that's a different matter, and out of context.

The subject is a God-given description of a God-reality. If you want to understand the topic of discussion, it would help to believe in what He has said/written. Otherwise you have nothing to base it on, and the topic will evade you.

If you would like to imagine you were able to understand, then you will have to do it hypothetically.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not at all. I accept the Nicene Creed

So when the Bible says "lake of fire" it means what?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, that's a different matter, and out of context.

The subject is a God-given description of a God-reality. If you want to understand the topic of discussion, it would help to believe in what He has said/written. Otherwise you have nothing to base it on, and the topic will evade you.

You deny this as your intent, then you repeat it again.

If you would like to imagine you were able to understand, then you will have to do it hypothetically.

I was a Christian for 20 years. I believed it fully. I do understand the claims. I just don't understand you.

 

[ScottA]

So what you are saying is that we need to believe the Bible, then decide if it makes sense?

Okay, let me take another look at your question.

If you believe the Bible, then it should make a certain amount of sense already. If then, some things don't yet make sense, then you move forward in the faith that you have started out correctly in your first steps of believing.

So, no, you don't just go out on a limb and say, "I believe the Bible" in blind faith...but because you have seen something that says, "Keep going."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Okay, let me take another look at your question.

If you believe the Bible, then it should make a certain amount of sense already. If then, some things don't yet make sense, then you move forward in the faith that you have started out correctly in your first steps of believing.

So, no, you don't just go out on a limb and say, "I believe the Bible" in blind faith...but because you have seen something that says, "Keep going."

If. If, you say. If my chicken had lips it could whistle.

Belief in the Bible is a hard sell to a rational adult. The vast majority of Christians were indoctrinated as children. Yes, yes, I know you weren't. I read your book's description. But you and others like you had the framework of Christianity laid out in your childhood. It wasn't some bizarre new idea sprung on your mature mind.

So cut the if stuff. I don’t believe and many on this thread do not either. Start there. Explain how it is rational for us to deserve eternal hellfire.

 

[ScottA]

If. If, you say. If my chicken had lips it could whistle.

Belief in the Bible is a hard sell to a rational adult. The vast majority of Christians were indoctrinated as children. Yes, yes, I know you weren't. I read your book's description. But you and others like you had the framework of Christianity laid out in your childhood. It wasn't some bizarre new idea sprung on your mature mind.

So cut the if stuff. I don’t believe and many on this thread do not either. Start there. Explain how it is rational for us to deserve eternal hellfire.

Now [hopefully] we're getting somewhere.

Incidentally, I did not have a framework of Christianity laid out in my childhood. On the contrary, it was completely foreign to me, but I ran out of options and called on God...and He answer, and changed me forever.

Okay, hell: Hell is a word, a word with a history and a definition based in what that place is "like." Likewise, of I said, "You should believe the Bible, it's the Bomb!" What have I said? ...Anyway, you get the point. But, to be perfectly clear: "Hell" comes from language, language is a form of communication, made up of source material of many related descriptive attempts to paint a picture of [in this case] something unseen. And then...all language, including the written word (the Bible) was confused by God himself, at the tower of Babel. So...it's a lousy word, describing something unseen about the future of the unbeliever.

The same written word, explains that the just reward of the worldly (those who love this life and this world)...is this world, this life. Such as it is, it's a gift (from God).

However...understanding eternity, it cannot be said, that hell is an eternal burning existence like endless days of torment. But...the best words that our confused language can use to describe the loss of that unseen reality, an immeasurable fraction of an immeasurable life to come, lost. It's "like" a self-inflicted burning flame of torment, "like" being robbed of riches you never knew, a crime against ones self, "like" winning the lottery a million times over, and saying, "No thank you." Words, simply can't describe the loss. And it would be, well, for lack of a better word...hell.

 

[Butch5]

So when the Bible says "lake of fire" it means what?

The lake of fire is Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

There was once a band of racist, sexist, genocidal, slave-driving rapists who drafted a system of morality, and now we are being told we must accept their method of atonement or else suffer unimaginable torment for eternity.

Some NT scholars with very good intentions fall blind to this sort of reasoning as well about the nature of Second Temple Judaism and its Scripture (the OT). They suggest that Jesus was remarkably dissimilar to STJ in that he felt highly of women, that he was egalitarian, that he was inclusive. The issue is that STJ was those things too, they highly revered Esther and Ruth as stories of strong women, their Scripture was filled with stories which broke the boundaries of Israelite/non-Israelite, again Ruth, Jonah. These NT scholars who do fall into this hermeneutic trap tend to get criticised for it by a growing number of Jewish scholars who are interested in the NT (Amy-Jill Levine, Jon Levenson, Daniel Boyarin) as well as a growing trend of NT scholars who have listened to the Jewish voices in the NT.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Now [hopefully] we're getting somewhere.

Incidentally, I did not have a framework of Christianity laid out in my childhood. On the contrary, it was completely foreign to me, but I ran out of options and called on God...and He answer, and changed me forever.

Okay, hell: Hell is a word, a word with a history and a definition based in what that place is "like." Likewise, of I said, "You should believe the Bible, it's the Bomb!" What have I said? ...Anyway, you get the point. But, to be perfectly clear: "Hell" comes from language, language is a form of communication, made up of source material of many related descriptive attempts to paint a picture of [in this case] something unseen. And then...all language, including the written word (the Bible) was confused by God himself, at the tower of Babel. So...it's a lousy word, describing something unseen about the future of the unbeliever.

The same written word, explains that the just reward of the worldly (those who love this life and this world)...is this world, this life. Such as it is, it's a gift (from God).

However...understanding eternity, it cannot be said, that hell is an eternal burning existence like endless days of torment. But...the best words that our confused language can use to describe the loss of that unseen reality, an immeasurable fraction of an immeasurable life to come, lost. It's "like" a self-inflicted burning flame of torment, "like" being robbed of riches you never knew, a crime against ones self, "like" winning the lottery a million times over, and saying, "No thank you." Words, simply can't describe the loss. And it would be, well, for lack of a better word...hell.

So you are saying hell is eternal regret?

Please explain why we deserve that then.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The lake of fire is Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem.

So all the Christians have it wrong on this huge issue? If they worship an invented God that you say is evil, what will become of them on Judgment Day?