Hell.

[yankees2830]

I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

Well if you understand how the justice of god works he must punish the sinner. Everyone has sinned(Romans 3:23), God is perfect and he is holy and we are not, so god must punish us because we all came from adam. God sent Christ to die on the cross, to take the punishment of sin. But we must repent with genuine repentance or the atonement won't work. God is so holy that ONE SIN on your soul will lead to eternal torment.

But from a cavlinistic perspective(the bible teaches this by the way) god has predestined most people to hell, and few to heaven. but in reality there is no excuse the law of god is written on everyones concious and god has shown us he exists(romans 1)

 

[yankees2830]

I don't believe that the Bible teaches an eternal hell. I believe it teaches that hell (and heaven) will last for an aeon/olam (something lasting for a long time, but also temporary). "Eternity" was a new meaning attached to the Greek word "aeon" around the 5th century A.D., and most English Bible translators have latched on to that late meaning, instead of using the original meaning.

actually hell is eternal, god says this in isaiah
"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24

 

[PsychoSarah]

The 'absence of God' is a bit of a misleading statement, as God is everywhere and all-knowing.
The complete absence is really one forsaken- God actually punishes, it's not simply Him leaving evil to it's own device.

People tend to subdue that reality because it's hard to swallow, but that is is simply part of God's righteousness- the wicked are condemned to Hellfire, not an underworld anarchy.

God not leaving people to their own devices, afterlife or not, is a violation of free will. Regardless, hell is ambiguous enough in the bible that you can get countless valid interpretations of it.

 

[ananda]

actually hell is eternal, god says this in isaiah
"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24

Thanks ...

to clarify, I meant that I don't believe that beings will dwell in hell for eternity. The fires of hell will last indefinitely, though ...

 

[WindStaff]

God not leaving people to their own devices, afterlife or not, is a violation of free will. Regardless, hell is ambiguous enough in the bible that you can get countless valid interpretations of it.

Hell isn't a concept derived primarily from the Bible, but through tradition. The Bible implies it and speaks on it with the assumption that the reader knows what Hell is. The people of the time knew it, and those thereafter were taught the same.

There is only one valid interpretation. Some people just don't like that Hell is in fact Hell and not some place nice.

 

[yankees2830]

God not leaving people to their own devices, afterlife or not, is a violation of free will. Regardless, hell is ambiguous enough in the bible that you can get countless valid interpretations of it.

actually does give people up to there devices
therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices. Proverbs 1:31

 

[yankees2830]

Thanks ...

to clarify, I meant that I don't believe that beings will dwell in hell for eternity. The fires of hell will last indefinitely, though ...

you're a buddhist? that is idolatry right there

 

[rstrats]

yankees2830,

re: "Well if you understand how the justice of god works he must punish the sinner...God is so holy that ONE SIN on your soul will lead to eternal torment."

So if the only sin a person commited during their life was to steal a candy bar, you think that justice would be served by torturing the person for eternity?

BTW, does the supreme being have any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be tossing the person into the lake of fire?



re: "God sent Christ to die on the cross, to take the punishment of sin."

What would you say is the punishment of sin? What punishment of sin was taken by the Messiah that would otherwise have to be taken by us?



re: "...the bible teaches...god has predestined most people to hell..."

I'm not aware of any scripture that says that. What do you have in mind?

 

[ananda]

you're a buddhist? that is idolatry right there

Buddha is not my idol.

 

[WindStaff]

you're a buddhist? that is idolatry right there

That's funny, being as how Buddhism doesn't even deal in idols period. It's not even explicitly theist in most circles, what are you even talking about?

WHY DO SO MANY CHRISTIANS STRUGGLE WITH WHAT IDOLATRY IS

 

[SarahsKnight]

That's funny, being as how Buddhism doesn't even deal in idols period. It's not even explicitly theist in most circles, what are you even talking about?

WHY DO SO MANY CHRISTIANS STRUGGLE WITH WHAT IDOLATRY IS

Because that's how judgmental some believers can be. To the point where it seems like they are just crouching ready to leap and pounce onto anything anyone they disagree with says, as in the above example you gave.

 

[Skavau]

People tend to subdue that reality because it's hard to swallow, but that is is simply part of God's righteousness- the wicked are condemned to Hellfire, not an underworld anarchy.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you find righteous about any of that.

 

[WindStaff]

I'm not entirely sure what it is you find righteous about any of that.

There's a reason why justice is often symbolized as a pair of scales, and that's because justice is balance.

Quite simply, if grace allows for eternal paradise, then condemnation allows for eternal punishment.

Eternal life simply does not do as a reward if the only contrary is death. Death is solemn, something that if it should exist for either everyone or just the wicked then there is no real justice.

 

[Skavau]

There's a reason why justice is often symbolized as a pair of scales, and that's because justice is balance.

Quite simply, if grace allows for eternal paradise, then condemnation allows for eternal punishment.

The scales, on both ends, appear to be completely absurd.

Eternal life simply does not do as a reward if the only contrary is death. Death is solemn, something that if it should exist for either everyone or just the wicked then there is no real justice.

That's an absurd premise.

That's like saying that all financial rewards should, on failure, actually necessarily involve taking away the proportionate amount of money you'd be rewarded.

 

[WindStaff]

That's an absurd premise.

No it isn't. It's all commensurate to what one deserves. Hell is suited to your wickedness, and Heaven is suited to your righteousness.

The Bible states that there will those called greater in Heaven. Also, Peter says that he'd rather be the doorman in Heaven then in Hell, which dictates that there are degrees of Heaven.
And if the scales are just, then it must be the same for Hell- some is worse for others.

Death is neutral- there is no justice in it, it simply means that for all one's righteousness or wickedness we are all going to be in oblivion one day and that's that.
Completely neglects justice altogether. There's no foundation for morals period, it all becomes utterly arbitrary.

 

[Skavau]

No it isn't. It's all commensurate to what one deserves. Hell is suited to your wickedness, and Heaven is suited to your righteousness.

This is said, as usual, without justification or even attempt at explanation.

Death is neutral- there is no justice in it, it simply means that for all one's righteousness or wickedness we are all going to be in oblivion one day and that's that.
Completely neglects justice altogether. There's no foundation for morals period, it all becomes utterly arbitrary.

This is akin to saying that because the outcome of someone's actions may not be as we'd approve of that all behavioural restraint becomes futile. It just does not follow.

It ignores in complete entirety why we even have restraint in functioning with other members of society.

 

[SuperCloud]

I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

I have a friend that went to prison in his 30's. He had a kid and a wife. Some old homies of his--probably jealous of him--jumped him and beat him bad. He left, got a gun, returned and shot both killing one.

He's doing something 38 years or something in prison.

I handle people I know going to hell kind of like I emotionally handle his damnation in the U.S. prison system. I have to place it somewhere and move on.

I pray for my parents eternal salvation, my brothers, my nephews, some others and my own.

But beyond your question are those that have cognitively chosen damnation in hell. There are those that for power and money and the sex and respect it brings in this life, will commit great evil, knowing they are currently choosing damnation in hell. I'm speaking of people that fully know this, fully believe this, and have no intention of repenting. People that will butcher your 7 year-old daughter to death with a screwdriver and pliers if they're being paid in a bag of cocaine or cash to do that hit while they have you and your wife duct taped up and watching. They know they are going to hell, and they want to make as much money as they can in this life, and if possible bring you and your wife with them to hell if they can.

Doesn't matter if you don't believe men like this exist (they believe you exist). And it does not matter is you don't believe Satan and hell exists (they believe you exist).

 

[SuperCloud]

Hell is a childish and primitive notion. Bad things will happen if you don't behave. It's the bogeyman incorporated into religious doctrine.

I live in the United States. Then why do we have people in prison for rape and murder?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I live in the United States. Then why do we have people in prison for rape and murder?

The doctrine doesn't really punish rape or murder, only lack of belief. If you want to claim NT trumps OT.

 

[SuperCloud]

The doctrine doesn't really punish rape or murder, only lack of belief. If you want to claim NT trumps OT.

I was raised from the cradle in Catholicism. Okay, mortal sin (e.g., rape, murder...) not repented for before death can get you damned eternally to hell. So, far as I know traditional Catholicism always taught some non-Christians can be saved and go to heaven (whilst many Catholics including priests will be damned to hell). But Catholic and Protestant theology--to be a theologian--requires an advanced degree. A doctoral degree I think. In other words, it gets quite complicated.

I have a book on selective writings of St. Thomas Aquinas. Even centuries ago that dude was writing up some complex stuff and doing so in a thoroughness that would challenge and drain a lot of college philosophy students. A lot of his stuff reminded me of Buddhism to some degree. Just more logical or "mathematical" than esoteric Buddhism.

And that's not promoting Catholic theology. I'm just saying it gets complex enough that it formally requires college education and advanced degrees in.

But my main point had to do with Americans being in prison for rape and murder. If it is childish to believe that if you do something wrong you will be punished, then why does the United States have rapists and murders in prisons and what does that say about "justice" in the USA if Americans are immorally punishing people that ought be let free to enjoy the best America has to offer?