Hell.

WindStaff · Nov 16, 2014

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

~ Isaiah 1:19-20

You may notice that is my signature.
You will also notice that it's a threat- Jesus talks more about Hell then he does Heaven because the Father isn't bargaining with people against Him.

Nanopants · Nov 16, 2014

^Note that the gospels go into excruciating detail about Christ's opponents (teachers of the law, unmerciful, binding heavy burdens and what not). A little history shows that Judaism was being hellenized as well, bringing in western ideas of the afterlife, including hades, the abode of the dead according to Greek mythology.

In the same chapter that Christ is quoted in as stating "blessed are the merciful," He is also quoted as recommending dismemberment to avoid hellfire (Mat 5).

The "sword" He spoke of has the effect of dividing households, and it is described as proceeding from His mouth in Revelation.

There are a number of things going on here which modern christianity evidently doesn't understand.

Skavau · Nov 17, 2014

WindStaff said:
Well, God doesn't see unbelievers as righteous. Because an unbeliever denies Him, they inevitably conclude that all is permissible.

The rest of what an atheist thinks or feels is just good imagery to hide what is inevitably the true conclusion in their standing. That's just the reality of it. It's why, for example, atheists can condemn a killer of an infant to an electric chair and yet make abortion a free right by which the refusal of is oppressive- it's all relative. That's what the 'relative morals' argument ultimately is about.

The problem is that, with having a perfect God, He cannot reward those with that position the same as those who accept His.

You deride relative morality yet adulate and praise an entity that would impose eternal torture for thought-crime. This means either two things:

1) You think it is entirely appropriate, nay desirable morally to torture people for thinking specific things.

2) You believe that God has a special exception that permits him to torture people for what they think. This would make you, de facto, a moral relativist.

In either case the doctrine of hell that you endorse is the sickest most barbaric contemporary concept believed by Christians & Muslims. Shame on you as you presumably enjoy all of the personal freedom granted to you from the secular democratic nation you reside in.

The core of your belief is totalitarianism and your admiration and defence for this centre makes you in effect, a crypto-fascist.

PsychoSarah · Nov 17, 2014

WindStaff said:
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

~ Isaiah 1:19-20

You may notice that is my signature.
You will also notice that it's a threat- Jesus talks more about Hell then he does Heaven because the Father isn't bargaining with people against Him.

Fine, but that doesn't excuse your complacency for all the people going to hell because of belief.

PsychoSarah · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
In Islam, Hell exists. God is not a father, like a mere human being. He is the Creator of the heavens and the earths, this endless universe, without any help from anyone. It is such a blasphemy to say that God is a father.

God is a king, the king of kings. He is a very jealous and a very proud king. He does not tolerate that the one He created bare and alone and sustains him throughout his life, He does not tolerate that he spends one instant of his life without God, without deep love of God, without deep fear of God, without deep hope in God, without deep admiration of God. That is why there is a Hell.

Amongst the tortures of Hell are drinking boiling water to quench one's thirst. The inmates of Hell will keep calling out to the angel in charge of Hell (Malik), asking him to ask God to put an end to them. He will keep telling them that this will never happen.

What is gross is not the belief in Hell. What is gross (in my opinion) is the inability to believe in Hell.

What is gross to me is that you think some people are unable to believe and you are still ok with them suffering for it.

PsychoSarah · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
It is not gross. There is a reason why they are unable to believe in it, and it is horrible.

Expand on this

PsychoSarah · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
In Islam, God Almighty is merciful. Mercy has 100 parts. All the mercy that you see between people, between creatures in this world accounts for 1 part. The other 99 parts remain with God Almighty. So, yes, God is merciful but that's another topic.

Punishing people for not worshipping is not merciful

SarahsKnight · Nov 17, 2014

Amongst the tortures of Hell are drinking boiling water to quench one's thirst. The inmates of Hell will keep calling out to the angel in charge of Hell (Malik), asking him to ask God to put an end to them. He will keep telling them that this will never happen.

What is gross is not the belief in Hell. What is gross (in my opinion) is the inability to believe in Hell.

That's it, I can't take this anymore. I know I said I would drop out of actively engaging in this several pages back, but this is sick. This is utterly sick. I HAVE to say this.

Other Christians, THIS right here is basically what you believe in when you just casually accept the eternal soul teaching in mainstream Christian dogma without question. Oh, with a few special exceptions like Jonathan Edwards, Christianity may not get into detail about the torments like the Muslim Quran does or have obvious verses in their Bible that outright say that the God they worship will deliberately hinder unbelievers from believing so that they go to Hell no matter what like I know at least one verse in the Quran says, but the gist is there. And now, although I didn't think it at first when I realized how little evidence there is in the Bible for the eternal soul and a person going directly to a place of endless bliss or endless torture when they die, I am beginning to believe it is doctrines like this sick demonic garbage that is the traditional hell that indeed is one of the things that "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles."

Don't worry, Psycho Sarah, not all Christians believe in this. If you ever wish to search for this God and Christ that we believe in (I hope I am not being too hasty in assuming you are atheist, as I just gather this from what posts of yours I have seen so far), then please, talk to one of them. Don't let majority religious dogma color your perceptions, however difficult it can be to avoid that.

PsychoSarah · Nov 17, 2014

SarahsKnight said:
That's it, I can't take this anymore. I know I said I would drop out of actively engaging in this several pages back, but this is sick. This is utterly sick. I HAVE to say this.

Other Christians, THIS right here is basically what you believe in when you just casually accept the eternal soul teaching in mainstream Christian dogma without question. Oh, with a few special exceptions like Jonathan Edwards, Christianity may not get into detail about the torments like the Muslim Quran does or have obvious verses in their Bible that outright say that the God they worship will deliberately hinder unbelievers from believing so that they go to Hell no matter what like I know at least on everse in the Quran says, but the gist is there. And now, although I didn't think it at first when I realized how little evidence there is in the Bible for the eternal soul and a person going directly to a place of endless bliss or endless torture when they die, I am beginning to believe it is doctrines like this sick demonic garbage that is the traditional hell that indeed is one of the things that "causes God's name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles."

Don't worry, Psycho Sarah, not all Christians believe in this. If you ever wish to search for this God and Christ that we believe in (I hope I am not being to hasty in assuming you are atheist, as I just gather this from what posts of yours I have seen so far), then please, talk to one of them. Don't let majority religious dogma color your perceptions, however difficult it can be to avoid that.

I know many people don't believe hell is eternal, etc. It is the people who are cool with others suffering because they believed incorrectly that disturb me, whether that be eternal or otherwise, a belief based punishment system is morally bankrupt.

Seeking faith for 6 years, no luck with establishing belief as of yet. This is why this especially hits home for me, it isn't as if I don't want to believe, but per the views of many if I died now I would still go to hell, even though I actively wanted to believe. And so many people are content with that.

SarahsKnight · Nov 17, 2014

All people were asked by God, before the world was created, if God was their Lord. They said yes.

.... Funny. I don't remember ever doing that. I guess in whatever form I existed in before I was born on Earth as a MORTAL HUMAN INFANT, I was sick the day God asked everyone in class that alleged question of eternal bearing.

Skavau · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
God is a king, the king of kings. He is a very jealous and a very proud king.

These are not noble, nor admirable traits. In a human we would them indicative of hubris and entitlement.

He does not tolerate that the one He created bare and alone and sustains him throughout his life, He does not tolerate that he spends one instant of his life without God, without deep love of God, without deep fear of God, without deep hope in God, without deep admiration of God. That is why there is a Hell.

This does not sound like my problem, thus not my responsibility to burden the consequences for such arbitrary and baffling demands.

Amongst the tortures of Hell are drinking boiling water to quench one's thirst. The inmates of Hell will keep calling out to the angel in charge of Hell (Malik), asking him to ask God to put an end to them. He will keep telling them that this will never happen.

You describe God as a sadistic monster.

What is gross is not the belief in Hell. What is gross (in my opinion) is the inability to believe in Hell.

An inability to believe in any proposition cannot be by definition gross.

Skavau · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
It's not the belief of someone that is punished. It is his unbelief. God shows His greatness to one, and one still says I don't believe in God. God is jealous and does not tolerate such offense to His majesty.

But God is loving is extends His love. But people do not seek that love.

People do not refuse to belief in a God due to malice, or hatred, or some low motive but on the basis of conviction. If you genuinely do not believe in the existence of a God(s) then you don't believe that way. No amount of threats can compel people to change their perception of reality - only influence the likelihood that they may pretend to change their conviction.

Belief is not a choice, it is a conclusion and torturing people for coming to a specific conclusion is one of the simplest examples of black and white in morality.

WindStaff · Nov 17, 2014

Nanopants said:
^Note that the gospels go into excruciating detail about Christ's opponents (teachers of the law, unmerciful, binding heavy burdens and what not). A little history shows that Judaism was being hellenized as well, bringing in western ideas of the afterlife, including hades, the abode of the dead according to Greek mythology.

In the same chapter that Christ is quoted in as stating "blessed are the merciful," He is also quoted as recommending dismemberment to avoid hellfire (Mat 5).

The "sword" He spoke of has the effect of dividing households, and it is described as proceeding from His mouth in Revelation.

There are a number of things going on here which modern christianity evidently doesn't understand.

The broadest usage of the term 'sword', in a symbolic sense, is the Word of God.
This is why it comes from the Lord's mouth.

I doubt the Word is only about dividing houses, being that the whole of existence is kept and subject to it.

Also, Hellenization is a bit over exaggerated. Despite many claims of likenesses and coincidence, most of it has to do on much simpler grounds. Like angels having wings, or virtually all the people of the Bible seen as pure white, and things of that nature.

Heidiii · Nov 17, 2014

Muslim75 said:
God is jealous and does not tolerate such offense to His majesty.

That claim makes God sound like a little kid. Jealousy is a sin that nothing good comes from, and it just makes no sense to say God is "jealous". I really hope that other Muslims don't also hold this view.

Aryeh Jay · Nov 17, 2014

Heidiii said:
That claim makes God sound like a little kid. Jealousy is a sin that nothing good comes from, and it just makes no sense to say God is "jealous". I really hope that other Muslims don't also hold this view.

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, NIV

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. NIV

You must not read much of the bible huh? BTW, this is The Lord God speaking, not some humans parable.

WindStaff · Nov 17, 2014

The Lord is jealous in that He doesn't like others messing with His people. There is a zeal to destroy those who try to poison the children of God, so when someone leaves Him for something else, it's like adultery.

Skavau · Nov 17, 2014

WindStaff said:
The Lord is jealous in that He doesn't like others messing with His people. There is a zeal to destroy those who try to poison the children of God, so when someone leaves Him for something else, it's like adultery.

These are not noble traits.

WindStaff · Nov 17, 2014

Skavau said:
These are not noble traits.

They are very noble traits. If you were a king who graced his kingdom with good and prosperity, having rescued them from persecution, and they left to go join some other one that would ultimately put them right back where they started..

I don't even need to say anymore. We're talking about the Creator of the Cosmos, how do you define what's 'noble' in that regard?

Skavau · Nov 17, 2014

WindStaff said:
They are very noble traits. If you were a king who graced his kingdom with good and prosperity, having rescued them from persecution, and they left to go join some other one that would ultimately put them right back where they started..

That's a laughable description of Earth. If Earth is watched over by a divine monarch then their reign would be remembered as catastrophic, neglectful, incompetent and even at points sadistic.

I don't even need to say anymore. We're talking about the Creator of the Cosmos, how do you define what's 'noble' in that regard?

Did you see my prior post to you on this?

I could not have a lower opinion of the concept of hell. If you wish to abdicate God from having any moral accountability on anything he does or says, that's fine, but don't complain about morality. Don't berate the concept of relative morality and condemn those who don't adhere when in practice your belief has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with obedience.

WindStaff · Nov 17, 2014

Skavau said:
If Earth is watched over by a divine monarch then their reign would be remembered as catastrophic, neglectful, incompetent and even at points sadistic.

God saw the world as all those things. You see, while you believe He shouldn't exist because you think He falls under those traits, then you ultimately concede that God was righteous with the Flood in His opinion as well.

I could not have a lower opinion of the concept of hell. If you wish to abdicate God from having any moral accountability on anything he does or says, that's fine, but don't complain about morality. Don't berate the concept of relative morality and condemn those who don't adhere when in practice your belief has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with obedience.

There is a place for punishing the wicked, which exists because God is not deistic, but holy.

You all are not as skeptical as you try to believe or tell others. You all understand the philosophical inevitability that without God, all is permissible and so when you make your own morals, they are illogical UNLESS you presume that you- are God.

And because absolute morals do not come from you, but rather God, you are incapable of doing any good without God.
You see, all that's good traces back to God's first acts with man after the Fall. And so, the only good is what can be traced back to that moment.

That's where a lot of Christians, particularly the liberal ones, completely fail to acknowledge in this work- they think that man's devices develop good, and perhaps it is in and of itself, but it doesn't reap anything permanent. It simply flops over and eventually gives way to more evil.
And that's not good by the holy context of good, it's simply false light.

Hell.

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