• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

W

WindStaff

Guest
I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

Hell is commensurate to one's sins, so if you aim for less agony, do less evil. If you want more agony, do more evil.
You get what you deserve, as that is the righteous judgement of the Lord. The fires of Hell are probably just rhetoric and allegory to have you understand the consequence of being wicked.
 
Upvote 0

Inkachu

Bursting with fruit flavor!
Jan 31, 2008
35,357
4,220
Somewhere between Rivendell and Rohan
✟77,996.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Here is the bottom line.

Anyone's interpretation of hell and who goes there, is going to be motivated by what suits them personally.

This doesn't apply to me at all. Thinking of anyone being damned, condemned, and in torment does not "suit me" one bit.
 
Upvote 0
N

Nanopants

Guest
I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

I agree. I honestly can't imagine an evil worse than torturing a person beyond any evil the person could have ever done, and to think it could be for all eternity only makes it infinitely worse. Further, a belief in a god that would ever do that certainly explains the behavior of some of christianity in history.

There's a catch though: scripture presents different "portraits" of God, and even admits to intentional "traps" and "delusions" from God. Not all of us believe in a god that does that sort of stuff, and I for one don't have to throw out scripture to support my beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Further, a belief in a god that would ever do that certainly explains the behavior of some of christianity in history.
This is one of the things that scares me about religion: the things you can justify to yourself when you believe that anyone who doesn't act the way you think they should will be sentenced to eternal agony.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,657
6,145
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,110,215.00
Faith
Atheist
This is one of the things that scares me about religion: the things you can justify to yourself when you believe that anyone who doesn't act the way you think they should will be sentenced to eternal agony.

And it scares me that those who think this way all too often want to send the condemned to their doom rather than work to save them.
 
Upvote 0
N

Nanopants

Guest
Hello to all.

I am speaking from the Islamic perspective.

In Islam, Hell exists. It is the abode of those who incurred the Divine's displeasure. The lowest punishment in Hell will be that of one who will wear shoes of fire, on account of which his brain will boil.

On Judgment Day Hell will roar. When it will be filled to its full capacity, it will be asked if it is satisfied. Hell will reply asking if there is more.

The concept of Hell is perfectly logical. God Almighty does not tolerate an insult to His majesty. When a servant steps out of his boundaries, the king takes vengeance. What do you think of the Lord of Majesty, God the Almighty ? And how evil do you think it is to speak a lie against God Almighty ? You have to know that most things you do in your day-to-day life are lies against God the Almighty, who owns you, created you, feeds you and gives you drink, bestows on you endless favours, and sees you and looks at you. When you realise how evil such things are, you will come to understand why there is a Hell.

Thank you for clarifying. I have to disagree, though, because there is something fundamentally wrong in thinking that perpetually torturing a person is somehow "better than" insulting a person.

To contrast, Judeo-Christianity teaches of the existence of a just and merciful God:

With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
For You will save the humble people,
But will bring down haughty looks.
-Ps 18:25-27

Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
-Mat 5:7,8

This does not say that God is like a soft marshmallow, but more so that we reap what we sow, and He is still to be feared, especially by those with cruel and unmerciful hearts. Taking that into consideration, along with the idea that God "chooses our delusions" (Isa 66:4), and that the "word of God" is a "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12), perhaps you might see from another perspective that teachings which seem to encourage the love of eternal torture appear to be some kind of a trap (Jer 50:24).
 
Upvote 0

Golden Yak

Not Worshipped, Far from Idle
May 20, 2010
584
32
✟15,938.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
In Islam, Hell exists. It is the abode of those who incurred the Divine's displeasure. The lowest punishment in Hell will be that of one who will wear shoes of fire, on account of which his brain will boil.

On Judgment Day Hell will roar. When it will be filled to its full capacity, it will be asked if it is satisfied. Hell will reply asking if there is more.

The concept of Hell is perfectly logical. God Almighty does not tolerate an insult to His majesty.

So you believe people deserve to have their bodies burned and brains boiled for... hurting God's feelings?

Gross.

When a servant steps out of his boundaries, the king takes vengeance.
Gross.

What do you think of the Lord of Majesty, God the Almighty?
Not much after your post.

When you realise how evil such things are, you will come to understand why there is a Hell.
I would one day like to hear a theist explain how being 'perfect' (and I'm not saying God is mind you) makes it okay to destroy somebody who offends you.
 
Upvote 0

blackribbon

Not a newbie
Dec 18, 2011
13,388
6,673
✟197,901.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

blind post:

Just because something isn't pleasant, doesn't mean it isn't real. Cancer and automobile accident are real and horrific...pretending they don't exist doesn't change this.

Hell is simply the absence of God. Every awful description is just a description of what it is like to be separate from God. It isn't a punishment for humans but rather a choice that comes from rejecting God....and if that is the case, why would anyone who didn't want to accept God in this world believe that they would want to be around God in the next world.

How do we live with it? I don't. I pray for the people around me and approach the topic when it seems acceptable to do so. It saddens me to think that anyone has chosen to live this life or the next without Jesus. But each person has free will to decide as they wish.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Hell is commensurate to one's sins, so if you aim for less agony, do less evil. If you want more agony, do more evil.
You get what you deserve, as that is the righteous judgement of the Lord. The fires of Hell are probably just rhetoric and allegory to have you understand the consequence of being wicked.

How do you reconcile all the people who end up there on the basis of belief?
 
Upvote 0
W

WindStaff

Guest
How do you reconcile all the people who end up there on the basis of belief?

Well, God doesn't see unbelievers as righteous. Because an unbeliever denies Him, they inevitably conclude that all is permissible.

The rest of what an atheist thinks or feels is just good imagery to hide what is inevitably the true conclusion in their standing. That's just the reality of it. It's why, for example, atheists can condemn a killer of an infant to an electric chair and yet make abortion a free right by which the refusal of is oppressive- it's all relative. That's what the 'relative morals' argument ultimately is about.

The problem is that, with having a perfect God, He cannot reward those with that position the same as those who accept His.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Well, God doesn't see unbelievers as righteous. Because an unbeliever denies Him, they inevitably conclude that all is permissible.

The rest of what an atheist thinks or feels is just good imagery to hide what is inevitably the true conclusion in their standing. That's just the reality of it. It's why, for example, atheists can condemn a killer of an infant to an electric chair and yet make abortion a free right by which the refusal of is oppressive- it's all relative. That's what the 'relative morals' argument ultimately is about.

The problem is that, with having a perfect God, He cannot reward those with that position the same as those who accept His.

Nope, why would I conclude all is permissible? Since when does a god have to be telling me what to do in order for me or anyone else to develop a basic sense of morality? We are a social group species, interacting in ways that benefit everyone and avoiding behaviors that hurts others is generally necessary for group survival, hence punishing infractions on that system is natural.

Atheists are a group as varied as theists. We hold no consistency in political views whatsoever, I know very conservative and very liberal atheists, and all inbetween. Your generalization is incorrect. Also, not all Christians agree on the same morals, not even ones who attend the same church, so all of humanity experiences a rather subjective perspective on morality.

A god can do whatever it wants, it is god. What is relevant to my question is why you are ok with decent people suffering on the basis of belief alone.
 
Upvote 0

blackribbon

Not a newbie
Dec 18, 2011
13,388
6,673
✟197,901.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
If you don't believe in a god, then you don't have to worry about hell...so there is no suffering when you die because you just cease to exist. Why would you be worried what anyone else thinks? Christians are not okay with people going to hell...they are really very concerned about the souls they believe will be lost. Hence, the purpose of evangelizing.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
If you don't believe in a god, then you don't have to worry about hell...so there is no suffering when you die because you just cease to exist. Why would you be worried what anyone else thinks? Christians are not okay with people going to hell...they are really very concerned about the souls they believe will be lost. Hence, the purpose of evangelizing.

I'm not worried about hell, I'm worried about the people who are cool with people like Ghandi suffering for all of eternity just because they didn't worship the right deity.

That sort of complacency in the face of moral bankruptcy is terrifying
 
Upvote 0
W

WindStaff

Guest
Nope, why would I conclude all is permissible? Since when does a god have to be telling me what to do in order for me or anyone else to develop a basic sense of morality? We are a social group species, interacting in ways that benefit everyone and avoiding behaviors that hurts others is generally necessary for group survival, hence punishing infractions on that system is natural.

When scripture speaks of something being 'of the world', they are revealing in contrast what is part of all existence.

What you are basing your notions of morality off of is not of an underlying, universal principle, but of the world. What 'generally' is necessary is not always what is necessary, and every era has a different moral palette.

The scriptures speak of a perfect eternal kingdom, which ultimately must be consistent and therefore be absolute. There can be no relativity.
Most people tend to concentrate on the fact that it's perfection is what makes it different then Earth, which is true, but also a wrong way of looking at it- it is different then the Earth because the Earth is temporary, imperfect, and has no consistency.
The exact opposite of a world with absolute morals.

Atheists are a group as varied as theists. We hold no consistency in political views whatsoever, I know very conservative and very liberal atheists, and all inbetween. Your generalization is incorrect. Also, not all Christians agree on the same morals, not even ones who attend the same church, so all of humanity experiences a rather subjective perspective on morality.

Christians are torn on morals because a lot of them try to tailor biblical perception to that of their worldly values.
There's more them then those who choose to follow God's wisdom in full.

The one's who stand by the totality of that wisdom, they stand alone against not only atheists but the rest of the world.
You see, that's where it's at- that's the light and salt of the world. The other Christians are somewhere in the twilight of that and the rest, still unable to let go of worldly bias.

A god can do whatever it wants, it is god. What is relevant to my question is why you are ok with decent people suffering on the basis of belief alone.

Actually, there are many things God cannot do. For example, He cannot contradict Himself. Another would be that He cannot change His mind because He would know beforehand His choice.
These are consequences of omnipotence.

Interestingly enough though, He could still however make a rock too heavy to lift, then change His mind and lift it.

Anyway, a person's salvation is between them and God. The hard truth is that people aren't as decent as they think they are, they aren't as skeptical as they try to believe or tell others, and they do in fact have a genuine option to see the totality of God's wisdom as it truly is.
 
Upvote 0

blackribbon

Not a newbie
Dec 18, 2011
13,388
6,673
✟197,901.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
I'm not worried about hell, I'm worried about the people who are cool with people like Ghandi suffering for all of eternity just because they didn't worship the right deity.

That sort of complacency in the face of moral bankruptcy is terrifying

I doubt that any Christian is "cool" with Ghandi suffering for eternity...but that doesn't mean he isn't. He was an intelligent man and made his own choices in life. Sometimes "intent" isn't good enough...that is just life...it works in all aspects of life.

I am puzzled why you would be concerned about what any Christian thinks ... if their thoughts don't change reality. If hell doesn't exist...why does it matter if what we think?
 
Upvote 0
N

Nanopants

Guest
If you don't believe in a god, then you don't have to worry about hell...so there is no suffering when you die because you just cease to exist. Why would you be worried what anyone else thinks? Christians are not okay with people going to hell...they are really very concerned about the souls they believe will be lost. Hence, the purpose of evangelizing.

Have you ever heard of Westboro Baptist Church? The lead pastor has passed away, so they may be on the decline, but it might be helpful to be aware of similar groups who affect the public's view of Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I doubt that any Christian is "cool" with Ghandi suffering for eternity...but that doesn't mean he isn't. He was an intelligent man and made his own choices in life. Sometimes "intent" isn't good enough...that is just life...it works in all aspects of life.

I am puzzled why you would be concerned about what any Christian thinks ... if their thoughts don't change reality. If hell doesn't exist...why does it matter if what we think?

If you don't think punishing people for that reason is ok, then why call the deity you worship "good"?
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
When scripture speaks of something being 'of the world', they are revealing in contrast what is part of all existence.

What you are basing your notions of morality off of is not of an underlying, universal principle, but of the world. What 'generally' is necessary is not always what is necessary, and every era has a different moral palette.

The scriptures speak of a perfect eternal kingdom, which ultimately must be consistent and therefore be absolute. There can be no relativity.
Most people tend to concentrate on the fact that it's perfection is what makes it different then Earth, which is true, but also a wrong way of looking at it- it is different then the Earth because the Earth is temporary, imperfect, and has no consistency.
The exact opposite of a world with absolute morals.



Christians are torn on morals because a lot of them try to tailor biblical perception to that of their worldly values.
There's more them then those who choose to follow God's wisdom in full.

The one's who stand by the totality of that wisdom, they stand alone against not only atheists but the rest of the world.
You see, that's where it's at- that's the light and salt of the world. The other Christians are somewhere in the twilight of that and the rest, still unable to let go of worldly bias.



Actually, there are many things God cannot do. For example, He cannot contradict Himself. Another would be that He cannot change His mind because He would know beforehand His choice.
These are consequences of omnipotence.

Interestingly enough though, He could still however make a rock too heavy to lift, then change His mind and lift it.

Anyway, a person's salvation is between them and God. The hard truth is that people aren't as decent as they think they are, they aren't as skeptical as they try to believe or tell others, and they do in fact have a genuine option to see the totality of God's wisdom as it truly is.

I don't think there is such a thing as moral absolutes, and even if there were, the lack of consistency in how our minds interpret information would leave them subjective in practice. So, pandering to moral absolutes is pointless.

I don't really care about how heaven is described so much, I obviously don't think it exists. Plus, for all you know the description of it in the bible is inaccurate even if it does exist.

I have never met two people, Christian or otherwise, who had consistently matching morals. By your perspective, no one but you follows god's word, and you know self serving bias is afoot when that happens.

It is literally impossible for a person to be without bias. You are lying to yourself if you think you are beyond it.

God changes his mind in the bible at least two times, once with the sacrifice of Issac, the other in which god is convinced to spare Lot and his family.

Don't care about that example. Nor does your claim without explanation as to why that would work have any impact.

I've been seeking belief for roughly 6 years with no luck. Contemplate that as you will, I despise being an atheist
 
Upvote 0

ThinkForYourself

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2013
1,785
50
✟2,294.00
Faith
Atheist
Well, put it this way: if you don't accept Christ's invitation, that means you don't want to be with Him. If you don't want to be with Him, He gives you what you want. Hell is that separation in afterlife from God, outside of peace that is in Heaven. Harsh, but fair.

Maybe Hell is a good idea.

I mean, if a parent decided their child didn't love them enough, no one would see anything wrong with locking that child in the basement, and burning them badly every day, but not quite badly enough to kill them.

Surely we can all agree that this is what a loving parent would do.
 
Upvote 0