Hell.

[keith99]

When I was Christian, I didn't think about it much until I read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Then I favored that view of Hell. The idea is that people who are in Hell don't really realize it, because that's where they belong. They don't realize what they're missing. They have what they want, and they choose to stay. Those who don't belong there choose to leave.

I don't remember ever having the fire and brimstone stuff pushed on me, thank goodness.

If I recall that story correctly only one left. Considering just what kind of sinner he was would have lots of people here after Lewis with torches and pitchforks.

 

[JaxKH]

While CS Lewis is a brilliant writer, I'd be careful to use his books as authority on Christian theology. He has made statements that seem somewhat pagan (accepting Christ as supreme alongside other gods). At the end of the day, his book is not a replacement of actually reading the Bible.

 

[ananda]

Ok, so if a person does not believe Jesus was God or has not even heard of Jesus, but they live a good life, they are spared hell?

Not necessarily a good life, but a loving life. Yes, anyone who lives a life filled and expressed with love are in fact true followers of Jesus.

 

[bhsmte]

Well, everyone has their own opinion and interpretation, but New Testament is pretty clear in description of 3rd item here.

I would agree on the interpretation of scripture being fairly clear who goes to hell.

The problem is, the moral problem this opens up for Christianity. Just because a person does not believe Jesus was God, but lives a terrific life of helping others, they are doomed. All the while, the person who has caused massive suffering in other people's lives, but finds Jesus and repents, is spared hell. Is that an all loving God for all his creation?

No way around the moral issue here and could be why someone like Billy Graham distanced himself from this later in life and stated people could make it to heaven without being a Christian. Joel Osteen has taken a similar position as well.

 

[keith99]

Absolutely. I don't believe that Jesus came to call people to believe in Him, but to follow Him (follow His example).

Long ago it struck me that Jesus is reported to say 'None come to the Father save through me'. I did not see him mention there that all such people would realize who they were following.

If I believed in some mystic Karmic balance I'd speculate that for each person claiming to follow Jesus who does not there should be one who does not make the claim but who is.

I know there are a lot in the first group.

 

[bhsmte]

Not necessarily a good life, but a loving life. Yes, anyone who lives a life filled and expressed with love are in fact true followers of Jesus.

They aren't followers of Jesus if they don't believe he was God, or pay attention to Christianity. It would mean they decided to live a good loving life on their own and didn't need someone else telling them they needed to.

 

[ananda]

Long ago it struck me that Jesus is reported to say 'None come to the Father save through me'. I did not see him mention there that all such people would realize who they were following.

If I believed in some mystic Karmic balance I'd speculate that for each person claiming to follow Jesus who does not there should be one who does not make the claim but who is.

I know there are a lot in the first group.

I agree. Even Jesus taught (Matthew 25:31-46) that there will be many in heaven with him that didn't expect to be there, and many excluded that did expect to be there.

 

[Cearbhall]

While CS Lewis is a brilliant writer, I'd be careful to use his books as authority on Christian theology. He has made statements that seem somewhat pagan (accepting Christ as supreme alongside other gods). At the end of the day, his book is not a replacement of actually reading the Bible.

I agreed with his ideas more than I agreed with other interpretations of Hell, especially literal interpretations of the Bible and ideas of everyone who's ever masturbated without repenting being stuck in hellfire forever. I had no problem with doing so. I'm no longer Christian, so there's nothing for you to worry about.

 

[keith99]

While CS Lewis is a brilliant writer, I'd be careful to use his books as authority on Christian theology. He has made statements that seem somewhat pagan (accepting Christ as supreme alongside other gods). At the end of the day, his book is not a replacement of actually reading the Bible.

Quite correct.

But I'd go with a write who learned Greek as a schoolboy over a pulpit preacher who seems to barely speak his own native tongue.

Also there is a huge gap between taking what Lewis wrote as a starting point for thinking about what is in Scripture and taking it as doctrine.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Jesus describes in pretty vivid detail, a man who dies and goes to hell and is being tormented in flames.

If so then you should be taking the words literally enough to see that apparently hell isn't so torturous that the rich man couldn't speak perfectly without a break or a scream of anguish in his voice as he asked for a drop of water. Not even an exclamation point at the end of his setence, if I recall, like he was shouting it. Oh, and also, this vivid picture, to be taken literally, would also show that the saved will get to watch the unsaved writhing in agony from across the way, and subtly rub it in their faces the whole time by saying, "Well, you missed out. Now YOU get to live in misery, and not just for a time on earth like Lazarus, but forever!"

Second, what do you believe happens to souls who reject God, after they die?

They die. The soul that sins, it shall die. Just like Ezekiel says. Or perish. Or burn UP. Or be consumed. Or destroyed. However you'd like to say the end of being. Many verses using language that sound like, well, being utterly destroyedinstead of existing forever in fiery conscious torment, with two in Revelation using the term tormented, neither of them even referring directly to unsaved humans. There is no soul that lives on forever naturally in Heaven or Hell after earthly death. The Bible has never said that in plain terms (which if eternal torment is true then it really should have), and barely even implied in a few verses, like "willing to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". But I'm not going to base an entire doctrine like hell as eternal conscious torment and immortality of the soul on a few suggestive verses in opposition to clear ones.

 

[ananda]

They aren't followers of Jesus if they don't believe he was God, or pay attention to Christianity. It would mean they decided to live a good loving life on their own and didn't need someone else telling them they needed to.

Yes, orthodox Christianity states that one must "believe that he is God" and pay attention to Christianity to be legitimate "followers of Jesus". I suggest that orthodoxy's interpretation is wrong, and their doctrines are based on flawed translations which have guided their interpretations to this day.

IMO, there is a clear emphasis on following Him (doing as He did) in the Greek that is strongly veiled in the majority of English translations today.

 

[bhsmte]

Here is the bottom line.

Anyone's interpretation of hell and who goes there, is going to be motivated by what suits them personally.

 

[JaxKH]

I would agree on the interpretation of scripture being fairly clear who goes to hell.

The problem is, the moral problem this opens up for Christianity. Just because a person does not believe Jesus was God, but lives a terrific life of helping others, they are doomed. All the while, the person who has caused massive suffering in other people's lives, but finds Jesus and repents, is spared hell. Is that an all loving God for all his creation?

No way around the moral issue here and could be why someone like Billy Graham distanced himself from this later in life and stated people could make it to heaven without being a Christian. Joel Osteen has taken a similar position as well.

I don't know about Billy Graham, but not a big fan of Joel Olsteen's prosperity gospel. The Bible is pretty clear, but I agree its not popular and following it to the T is not going to get you a large mega church congregation. The masses want to hear about money, prosperity, the feel good stuff, not the responsibility, the discussion and recognition of sin.

Biblical teaching is that no one gets into Heaven on their own, no matter how much charitable events they carried out. They have to acknowledge they are a sinner and need of a savior to carry out the sacrifice on their behalf. This is the foundation of Christianity that is often misunderstood in entertainment and media. It's not about being good. Humanity's good is pale trash compared to God's good. That's the reality. People are unaware how often they sin, how many evil thoughts pass through their minds per day. No mere man can compare to God...its not even worth trying.

The biggest sin one can commit, the only unforgivable one, is one who does not trust God. If God says something, it will happen. If you don't trust Him, all is lost. Trying to be a good person on own merit is foolishness self-righteousness. It's bound to fail and it will never please God.


John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

The New Birth
3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[bhsmte]

I don't know about Billy Graham, but not a big fan of Joel Olsteen's prosperity gospel. The Bible is pretty clear, but I agree its not popular and following it to the T is not going to get you a large mega church congregation. The masses want to hear about money, prosperity, the feel good stuff, not the responsibility, the discussion and recognition of sin.

Biblical teaching is that no one gets into Heaven on their own, no matter how much charitable events they carried out. They have to acknowledge they are a sinner and need of a savior to carry out the sacrifice on their behalf. This is the foundation of Christianity that is often misunderstood in entertainment and media. It's not about being good. Humanity's good is pale trash compared to God's good. That's the reality. People are unaware how often they sin, how many evil thoughts pass through their minds per day. No mere man can compare to God...its not even worth trying.

The biggest sin one can commit, the only unforgivable one, is one who does not trust God. If God says something, it will happen. If you don't trust Him, all is lost. Trying to be a good person on own merit is foolishness self-righteousness. It's bound to fail and it will never please God.


John 3 New King James Version (NKJV)

The New Birth
3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Yes, I am familiar with what scripture states and the various interpretations of the scripture.

Problem for me is, I used to be a Christian and upon a thorough scholarly and historical review of the NT, I have come to not put a lot of credibility in scripture, based on what I learned. I understand why many rely on it though.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Anyone's interpretation of hell and who goes there, is going to be motivated by what suits them personally.

You may generally be right on this. It would certainly say a lot about the kind of people like Bill Wiese who claim to have been revealed such specific tortures in hell by ... of all things ... the Holy Spirit in a dream or NDE.

Yeah, you know, the Holy Spirit, the One called the Comforter? Who made Bill see such terrible things going on in hell and made him feel a simulation of the supposed isolation from God's love for 23 minutes, causing him to awaken with a scream in the middle of the night and feel terribly thirsty for water? Because the Comforter does things like that, you know.


Actually, I don't remember if in his testimony Bill claimed specifically that the Holy Spirit led him on this journey through the eternal torture chamber, but I've heard other people claim in their hell testimonies before, and I figure if eternal torment is indeed the truth here, then the One who will "guide in all truth" would be the one to reveal it, despite the horror and anguish it would cause.


..... That very kind of thing I would consider blasphemy, but, I guess not all Christians see it that way.

 

[Cearbhall]

Here is the bottom line.

Anyone's interpretation of hell and who goes there, is going to be motivated by what suits them personally.

Yep. Oh well...

 

[abysmul]

And what do you believe is on offer for unbelievers?

Death.

 

[Euler]

Hell is a place people choose to be in.
It is not a good place.
But they would hate God so much or love themselves so much, they will rather go there and adapt in that very unpleasant environment.

I couldn't disagree more.

Beliefs are NOT a matter of "choice"!

I could no more convince myself of there being a god than I could that the sky is tangerine, without sufficient evidence to lead me to either of those conclusions.

So, hell becomes a promised punishment for those who have no choice over what they believe!

You presumably believe in a god because you have amassed experiences which you see as sufficient evidence for your belief. Many people don't. Many of those people have sought such evidence earnestly, with no result. Are you suggesting that they should "choose" any way? Just pretend that they have that evidence? Go along with Pascal's unethical wager?

As others have said, it's an entirely childish notion - 'Just believe what I tell you to believe or you'll suffer forever'.

 

[Golden Yak]

Death.

Well, we agree there.

 

[Cearbhall]

So, hell becomes a promised punishment for those who have no choice over what they believe!

More like those who weren't lucky enough to be born into a family that has the "right" religion.