Hell.

[Resha Caner]

Generally, the New Atheists characterize, they do not analyze. The rigor and depth of a sustained argument would be welcomed. We could explore fundamental notions of justice and existential responsibility. But you can't coax it out of them when they're in high dudgeon. Someone says "crappy" and I'm supposed to take that seriously? Really?

 

[bhsmte]

Generally, the New Atheists characterize, they do not analyze. The rigor and depth of a sustained argument would be welcomed. We could explore fundamental notions of justice and existential responsibility. But you can't coax it out of them when they're in high dudgeon. Someone says "crappy" and I'm supposed to take that seriously? Really?

On the contrary, I believe it is the analysis of the concept of hell and who gets to visit hell and for what reasons as described in the bible and by some Christians is what ruffles feathers, because it brings up legitimate moral questions.

 

[Golden Yak]

No, as in there are plenty of Christians that understand that the Bible does not teach "Hellfire" and everlasting torture.

And what do you believe is on offer for unbelievers?

Generally, the New Atheists characterize, they do not analyze. The rigor and depth of a sustained argument would be welcomed. We could explore fundamental notions of justice and existential responsibility. But you can't coax it out of them when they're in high dudgeon. Someone says "crappy" and I'm supposed to take that seriously? Really?

I sure wasn't about to call it 'morally perfect.' Do you agree with abysmul, that the Bible doesn't teach of an eternal punishment?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm sure this has been posted about a lot. I'm an agnostic, leaning towards atheist. But recently I realized how sick the concept of Hell actually is. I was raised a Christian. We are taught about it in Sunday school, and think almost nothing of it. We are desensitized to it.

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

I do it by inferring from Scripture that no one is going to burn in Hell for all eternity. Something like that, anyway...

 

[keith99]

Curious ... what tortures do you think are happening in hell?

I do not think Hell exists.

Because of a seed C.S. Lewis planted I think the most reasonable interpretation of Scripture when it comes to any of the horrible aspects of Hell is not meant to be taken literally. By that I DO NOT mean not to be taken seriously by those who believe. Rather it is an attempt by mortal men to make clear how unbearable the pain of being forever separated from their God would be for a true believer and that to such believers any additional pain pale in comparison.

Now as to the tortures preached and taught there are many starting with fire and brimstone and ending with a frozen lake. And of course devils with pitchforks. Of course Devils as mainly providers of pain rather than the first to suffer it seems to run directly against a lot of Scripture. But fire and brimstone preachers have never let a minor detail like that even give them pause.

 

[Doublemint]

And what do you believe is on offer for unbelievers?



I sure wasn't about to call it 'morally perfect.' Do you agree with abysmul, that the Bible doesn't teach of an eternal punishment?

Hell is a place people choose to be in.
It is not a good place.
But they would hate God so much or love themselves so much, they will rather go there and adapt in that very unpleasant environment.

Satan would be there, beast and false prophet, so they would have their governing body there.
Not pleasant, but that would be the new life, life where past sins burn your soul. I mean, we do have some understanding when the memories of some things we had done do burn our minds.

Over there things we had done will burn the souls.
It is justice. We were the ones who had done that, no one else.
But ... after the initial shock people would adjust.

But the point is - why go there?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I do not think Hell exists.

Because of a seed C.S. Lewis planted I think the most reasonable interpretation of Scripture when it comes to any of the horrible aspects of Hell is not meant to be taken literally. By that I DO NOT mean not to be taken seriously by those who believe. Rather it is an attempt by mortal men to make clear how unbearable the pain of being forever separated from their God would be for a true believer and that to such believers any additional pain pale in comparison.

Now as to the tortures preached and taught there are many starting with fire and brimstone and ending with a frozen lake. And of course devils with pitchforks. Of course Devils as mainly providers of pain rather than the first to suffer it seems to run directly against a lot of Scripture. But fire and brimstone preachers have never let a minor detail like that even give them pause.

...of course, fire and brimstone preachers have to assume that the 'Grim Reaper' is an actual entity who will also suffer eternal torment--which I always thought a bit odd.

 

[keith99]

Below are the people who are going to hell.
Even they have a chance to repent, but chose not to.
Do you really want these people as your neighbors and co-workers?

REV 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood ... . 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Curiously that list seems to have far more in common with most Christians than it does with me or most atheists or agnostics. For I do not worship idols or demons. I practice no magic and unless one picks and chooses carefully am more sexually moral than many if not most most Christians.

Christians seem far more likely to start worshiping idols when if their God fails to save them than I.

But that is far from the full list that the fire and brimstone crowd would condemn. They would condemn me to Hell even if I, thinking him only a good man, died while trying to protect a returned Christ from some angry mob. The fire and brimstone crowd will condemn all who fail to join their club. In many cases excluding the vast majority of Christian denominations.

 

[Doublemint]

I do not think Hell exists.

Well, Jesus gave us a hint what hell is like.
He really thought it exists.

You probably know there is a 'first hell' "temporary hell" where many go after death and hell that is after the Great Judgment, the Burning Lake, the 'second hell'.
Reference below is the second hell.

MT 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
​

The first hell is more of an Underworld.
It has cities, levels, if you were really bad your sins would catch up with you ... children are at rest so the ones who were not really criminals.
It is Sheol in Hebrew.
In any case, the best one can describe it - it is a sad place for the OK people and a bad place for bad people.

Because of a seed C.S. Lewis planted I think the most reasonable interpretation of Scripture when it comes to any of the horrible aspects of Hell is not meant to be taken literally. By that I DO NOT mean not to be taken seriously by those who believe. Rather it is an attempt by mortal men to make clear how unbearable the pain of being forever separated from their God would be for a true believer and that to such believers any additional pain pale in comparison.

Pain is a spiritual pain or reality of sins burning one's soul.

But that is the 2nd hell.

CS Lewis wrote of the first hell. Great little book "Great Divorce".
Easy read and really, really interesting for anyone to read.

Now as to the tortures preached and taught there are many starting with fire and brimstone and ending with a frozen lake. And of course devils with pitchforks. Of course Devils as mainly providers of pain rather than the first to suffer it seems to run directly against a lot of Scripture. But fire and brimstone preachers have never let a minor detail like that even give them pause.

It makes for a great movie though.

Sins we had committed would come back at us.
Clearly the burning is not physical, since we are not physical in there.

But it is real.
Forgiveness of sins is really a great thing.
I am not preaching, I am making it as a factual statement.

Although you are an atheist I am sure you do not deny the possibility of the afterlife.

 

[Doublemint]

Curiously that list seems to have far more in common with most Christians than it does with me or most atheists or agnostics. For I do not worship idols or demons. I practice no magic and unless one picks and chooses carefully am more sexually moral than many if not most most Christians.

Christians seem far more likely to start worshiping idols when if their God fails to save them than I.

But that is far from the full list that the fire and brimstone crowd would condemn. They would condemn me to Hell even if I, thinking him only a good man, died while trying to protect a returned Christ from some angry mob. The fire and brimstone crowd will condemn all who fail to join their club. In many cases excluding the vast majority of Christian denominations.

That text refers to the end times when everyone basically would be as bad as they get.
People today are not as bad as they can get.

Religious people as well as atheist both worship idols if they choose to do so. Worshiping money (things like that).

If you die (and I wish you long and healthy life) as you are, you would go into the Underworld.
It is not a nice place. You would reside in a neighborhood that is reflective of the sins you have committed.
Also, if you had it easy here, you would not have that easy there.
This hell is kind of a Great Equalizer.

The place has cities, levels, the gospel is also "preachable" there ... it means it would have types of churches ... but sin would be lot more obvious than here.
Sad place. Law abiding Jews of the OT were going there hopping to get the "top" level and join their "fathers".
Asians know a lot more on that as well.
That's where 'ancestral worship" came from - being afraid of own parents. Another story.

I talk too much ...

 

[Inkachu]

Two questions for Christians who don't believe in the traditional, literal hell (lake of fire).

Jesus describes in pretty vivid detail, a man who dies and goes to hell and is being tormented in flames. (Luke 16) How do you explain His words if there IS no hell? Jesus spoke in many parables, yes, but He never invented imaginary places, His parables always dealt with real life, possible situations.

Second, what do you believe happens to souls who reject God, after they die?

 

[bhsmte]

Two questions for Christians who don't believe in the traditional, literal hell (lake of fire).

Jesus describes in pretty vivid detail, a man who dies and goes to hell and is being tormented in flames. (Luke 16) How do you explain His words if there IS no hell? Jesus spoke in many parables, yes, but He never invented imaginary places, His parables always dealt with real life, possible situations.

Second, what do you believe happens to souls who reject God, after they die?

For those that subscribe to the premise that everything attributed to Jesus in the NT is historically accurate, I understand your point, but many don't believe all contributed to Jesus is reliable and that would include many Christian scholars and historians.

On this site alone, I have been told various opinions about judgment and hell from Christians:

-Hell is not a real place
-Hell is for those who are bad people and even if you are not a believer, if you are good you won't go to hell
-Hell is for all those who are not Christians, and it does not matter how good a life they lead, nor does it matter if the Christian lives a life that causes suffering to others, if they repent, they will be spared hell.

 

[ananda]

For those that subscribe to the premise that everything attributed to Jesus in the NT is historically accurate, I understand your point, but many don't believe all contributed to Jesus is reliable and that would include many Christian scholars and historians.

On this site alone, I have been told various opinions about judgment and hell from Christians:

-Hell is not a real place
-Hell is for those who are bad people and even if you are not a believer, if you are good you won't go to hell
-Hell is for all those who are not Christians, and it does not matter how good a life they lead, nor does it matter if the Christian lives a life that causes suffering to others, if they repent, they will be spared hell.

I'll add this (my belief) to your confusion

-(A limited) Hell is for those who do not follow Jesus by actively being loving persons; those who live a life of love are the true "Christians". Those who do not live a life of love are lost, even if they claim to be "believers".

 

[bhsmte]

I'll add this (my belief) to your confusion

-Hell is for those who do not follow Jesus by actively being loving persons; those who live a life of love are the true "Christians". Those who do not live a life of love are lost, even if they claim to be "believers".

Do you believe people are capable of living loving lives and helping others if they don't believe Jesus was God?

 

[Cearbhall]

Anyway, how do you guys get around the thought of your coworkers, friends, etc., burning in Hell for all eternity in endless agony?

When I was Christian, I didn't think about it much until I read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Then I favored that view of Hell. The idea is that people who are in Hell don't really realize it, because that's where they belong. They don't realize what they're missing. They have what they want, and they choose to stay. Those who don't belong there choose to leave.

I don't remember ever having the fire and brimstone stuff pushed on me, thank goodness.

 

[ananda]

Do you believe people are capable of living loving lives and helping others if they don't believe Jesus was God?

Absolutely. I don't believe that Jesus came to call people to believe in Him, but to follow Him (follow His example).

 

[bhsmte]

When I was Christian, I didn't think about it much until I read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Then I favored that view of Hell. The idea is that people who are in Hell don't really realize it, because that's where they belong. They don't realize what they're missing. They have what they want, and they choose to stay. Those who don't belong there choose to leave.

I don't remember ever having the fire and brimstone stuff pushed on me, thank goodness.

Don't you just love all this speculation about what hell is or whether hell exists? No one has a shred of evidence and the speculation is off the charts.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Two questions for Christians who don't believe in the traditional, literal hell (lake of fire).

Jesus describes in pretty vivid detail, a man who dies and goes to hell and is being tormented in flames. (Luke 16) How do you explain His words if there IS no hell? Jesus spoke in many parables, yes, but He never invented imaginary places, His parables always dealt with real life, possible situations.

Second, what do you believe happens to souls who reject God, after they die?

Hi Inkachu,

I agree that Jesus presents some vivid detail in the Luke 16 passage, but much of the passage reflects cultural notions of life after death already present in other literature of His time. Additionally, the overarching concept used by Jesus in the parable is that of "Hades," rather than "Gehenna."

For those poor souls who fully reject Christ, when they die they will either: 1) go to a temporary holding place (Hades) for final judgement, and then cast to utter oblivion, or 2) be immediately 'exposed' to utter oblivion.

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

 

[JaxKH]

For those that subscribe to the premise that everything attributed to Jesus in the NT is historically accurate, I understand your point, but many don't believe all contributed to Jesus is reliable and that would include many Christian scholars and historians.

On this site alone, I have been told various opinions about judgment and hell from Christians:

-Hell is not a real place
-Hell is for those who are bad people and even if you are not a believer, if you are good you won't go to hell
-Hell is for all those who are not Christians, and it does not matter how good a life they lead, nor does it matter if the Christian lives a life that causes suffering to others, if they repent, they will be spared hell.

Well, everyone has their own opinion and interpretation, but New Testament is pretty clear in description of 3rd item here.

 

[bhsmte]

Absolutely. I don't believe that Jesus came to call people to believe in Him, but to follow Him (follow His example).

Ok, so if a person does not believe Jesus was God or has not even heard of Jesus, but they live a good life, they are spared hell?