• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Same old accusations of irrelevant and/or out-of-context and/or sheer speculation.

I gave a simple, straight-forward answer to your earlier opinion that
by giving verses that strongly suggest if not outright say the ultimate fate of the wicked is to be destroyed. But I forgot that only your interpretation of destroy stands (and don't give me that post again; half of terms easily sound more like literal death supporting our view).

Is this what you call being civil, accusing me of saying only my interpretation of destroy stands? You make the assertion that "half of the terms sound more like literal death supporting [y]our view" Can you give me a few examples? Nah! Didn't think so.

It's so obvious you just up and turned your suggestion of destruction around to refer to eternal torment just to be able to post that again and blow me off with sounding like you're the only intelligent arguer here, with sentences such as this:

DA said:
Have you read any of my posts? Can you give me a good reason why I should read and interact with your post when you ignore mine?

In the post I responded to you did not adress anything I said.

One good reason? Easy. What I posted was a straightforward answer in the form of example verses in reply to what I thought you meant as a straight-forward statement. There's no reason for me to think you meant destroy in your post, about the eternal fate of the wicked not being indicated whether or not Satan is destroyed, to mean what the traditional argument for hell means by destroy (eternal conscious ruin/suffering/ect.). You had to have meant destroy in the way that the annihilationist side of this argument would have meant it, otherwise as the arguer of the traditional side your post makes no sense, because that would be you asking for proof that the wicked humans suffer the same fate as the eternal torment of Satan. But no, instead you just say that's not what I meant to make me look like a moron who is incapable of understanding your sophisticated point of view.

I have read this a few times but I'm still not sure what you are saying here. If Satan is destroyed i.e. no longer exists taht does not prove that the same thing happens to wicked humans. But I see the devil being tormented day and night for ever and ever, Rev 20:10, not destroyed.

But whatever, before this time I tried being civil and addressing your arguments before in some way without being passive-aggressively insulting in spite of the fact that you just act like everyone else is foolish and missing plain points all of the time.

I don't see that I am doing anything differently than anyone else posting here. I state what I believe and post evidence to support that. And I don't see anyone disproving what I post. What I do see is people posting verses which they think supports a different view. Which seems to be saying, "My scripture trumps your scripture."

So I'm out of this discussion because I'm not learning anything new here and no one is ever going to concede any point no matter what anyone else says and there's no sense in my getting angry over posts like yours.

I would be willing to concede something if someone was disproving my arguments but so far nobody is doing that. I try to disprove arguments by showing the meaning of words for example the word translated "destroy" most of the time cannot mean cease to exist.
 
Upvote 0

CherubRam

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2012
6,777
781
✟103,730.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Jesus did not say "cut off from the living," He said "eternal punishment, Mt 25:46, Jesus also said,

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.



As I have shown repeatedly there is more than one verse which supports "tormented for eternity" and I have also shown that you have not provided any verses which clearly say different.



Please tell me how you supposedly know what you think you know about orthodox Judaism? I seriously doubt that you know much at all about "Orthodox Judaism" you make up your own meaning and pronunciation of Hebrew words.You evidently know virtually nothing about Jewish history. Actually none of the English words in our Bibles occur in Orthodox Judaism but that is irrelevant. You keep saying what is and is not a teaching in Orthodox Judaism but you never seem to provide any evidence. I have proved several times that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus did believe in a place of eternal, unending punishment of the wicked and they called iit both Gehinnom and Sheol. And you have not and cannot prove that wrong.

Yes, there were Pagan, Gnostic, Mystic, and Hellenized Jews who believe in a Hell. But that is not true of Orthodox Judaism.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Same old accusations of irrelevant and/or out-of-context and/or sheer speculation.


I gave a simple, straight-forward answer to your earlier opinion that
by giving verses that strongly suggest if not outright say the ultimate fate of the wicked is to be destroyed. But I forgot that only your interpretation of destroy stands (and don't give me that post again; half of terms easily sound more like literal death supporting our view).

It's so obvious you just up and turned your suggestion of destruction around to refer to eternal torment just to be able to post that again and blow me off with sounding like you're the only intelligent arguer here, with sentences such as this:


One good reason? Easy. What I posted was a straightforward answer in the form of example verses in reply to what I thought you meant as a straight-forward statement. There's no reason for me to think you meant destroy in your post, about the eternal fate of the wicked not being indicated whether or not Satan is destroyed, to mean what the traditional argument for hell means by destroy (eternal conscious ruin/suffering/ect.). You had to have meant destroy in the way that the annihilationist side of this argument would have meant it, otherwise as the arguer of the traditional side your post makes no sense, because that would be you asking for proof that the wicked humans suffer the same fate as the eternal torment of Satan. But no, instead you just say that's not what I meant to make me look like a moron who is incapable of understanding your sophisticated point of view.


But whatever, before this time I tried being civil and addressing your arguments before in some way without being passive-aggressively insulting in spite of the fact that you just act like everyone else is foolish and missing plain points all of the time. So I'm out of this discussion because I'm not learning anything new here and no one is ever going to concede any point no matter what anyone else says and there's no sense in my getting angry over posts like yours.

For you, CherubRam, Timothew, and others, you guys keep arguing for our theological stance if you want, but I don't have the heart for arguing it like this.



Hey Knight, it doesn't matter what they think. Nobody's mind is ever changed on an internet discussion forum anyway. It is enough that you believe what the Bible actually says instead of the Traditional Party Line.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I would be willing to concede something if someone was disproving my arguments but so far nobody is doing that. I try to disprove arguments by showing the meaning of words for example the word translated "destroy" most of the time cannot mean cease to exist.

Don't you recall when I went through each one of your 37 proof texts, one by one? Do we need to go over that again? You think you have a headlock on truth, but you are simply stubbornly refusing to accept the truth.

Not even one of your prooftexts actually said what you claimed it said.
 
Upvote 0

BukiRob

Newbie
Dec 14, 2012
2,809
1,007
Columbus, Ohio
✟68,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
If there is life in Hell, then people would know each other by name. If the wicked parish in His (Yahwah's) presence, then how can they be alive in Hell? Do you think DA will get it this time?

He tries with all his might to tap dance around the truth that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY the believer is granted eternal life. It is GIVEN to us so if it is GIVEN to us, we require it... No one gives something you already possess. Since we are NOT immortal beings if eternal life is NOT given to us WE WILL DIE...

You know just like G-d said man would if he ate from the tree of good and evil....

The WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH... in D.A. reality G-d is just kidding
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Please tell me how you supposedly know what you think you know about orthodox Judaism? I seriously doubt that you know much at all about "Orthodox Judaism" you make up your own meaning and pronunciation of Hebrew words..
Elysium. In Greek mythology, the abode of the blessed, paradise. Situated in the lower part of the world, Vergil says that it is here that those souls of the good, chosen by the gods, dwell after death.
In ancient Greek the terms Elysium and Haides always occur as adjectives rather than proper names, i.e. pedion Elysion (the Elysian plain) and domos Haidou (the domain or house of Haides).

In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.
HADES, LAND OF THE DEAD 1 : Greek mythology

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of an eternal punishment other than death; their is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius
Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate.
This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition:
Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jesus did not say "cut off from the living," He said "eternal punishment, Mt 25:46, Jesus also said,

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

As I have shown repeatedly there is more than one verse which supports "tormented for eternity" and I have also shown that you have not provided any verses which clearly say different.

Please tell me how you supposedly know what you think you know about orthodox Judaism? I seriously doubt that you know much at all about "Orthodox Judaism" you make up your own meaning and pronunciation of Hebrew words.You evidently know virtually nothing about Jewish history. Actually none of the English words in our Bibles occur in Orthodox Judaism but that is irrelevant. You keep saying what is and is not a teaching in Orthodox Judaism but you never seem to provide any evidence. I have proved several times that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus did believe in a place of eternal, unending punishment of the wicked and they called iit both Gehinnom and Sheol. And you have not and cannot prove that wrong.

Yes, there were Pagan, Gnostic, Mystic, and Hellenized Jews who believe in a Hell. But that is not true of Orthodox Judaism.

Does not address my post in any way. I take it from this digression you cannot answer my questions. Please tell me how you supposedly know what you think you know about orthodox Judaism? I seriously doubt that you know much at all about "Orthodox Judaism" you make up your own meaning and pronunciation of Hebrew words. You evidently know virtually nothing about Jewish history.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He tries with all his might to tap dance around the truth that ONLY, ONLY, ONLY the believer is granted eternal life. It is GIVEN to us so if it is GIVEN to us, we require it... No one gives something you already possess. Since we are NOT immortal beings if eternal life is NOT given to us WE WILL DIE...

You know just like G-d said man would if he ate from the tree of good and evil....

The WAGES OF SIN ARE DEATH... in D.A. reality G-d is just kidding

Bearing false witness, evidently the truth is not in you. I have repeatedly said the Bible does say,
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23"​

The Bible also says,
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23​

All, 100%, of mankind, has sinned and come short of the glory of God. And the Bible further says,
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Heb 9:27​

Therefore all, 100%, of mankind, has sinned, and all, 100%, of mankind is appointed to die, after that the judgment. What scripture does not say is "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death." There is not one verse which describes anyone dying a second time. No, not one.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Elysium. In Greek mythology, . . .
In ancient Greek mythology and religion ...
HADES, LAND OF THE DEAD 1 : Greek mythology

Irrelevant! Does not address my post which you quoted.

In mainstream Judaism there is no concept of an eternal punishment other than death; their is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan means "the adversary" or the obstacle, or even "the prosecutor" (recognizing that God is viewed as the ultimate Judge).

What mainstream Judaism taught about Hell before and during the time of Jesus. My Post #4, this thread, reposted.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is not correct. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50 that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

What mainstream Judaism believed about Satan, before and during the time of Jesus.

Satan
The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463) is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible.

It is difficult to identify Satan in any other passages of the Apocrypha, since the originals in which his name occurred have been lost, and the translations employ various equivalents. An "argumentum a silentio" can not, therefore, be adduced as proof that concepts of Satan were not wide-spread; but it must rather be assumed that reference to him and his realm is implied in the mention of evil spirits of every sort (comp. Demonology, and Kautzsch, "Apokryphen," Index).

Jewish Encyclopedia online

Newton ...Muggleton...Bekker, ...Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

All false and irrelevant. See Jewish Encyclopedia citations above.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is not one verse which describes anyone dying a second time. No, not one.

As a matter of fact, there is.
Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As a matter of fact, there is.
Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.

This verse does not describe anyone dying a second death.

Robertson's Word Pictures Rev 2:11
Of the second death (ek tou thanatou tou deuterou). Ek here used for the agent or instrument as often (Rev_3:18; Rev_9:2; Rev_18:1). See Rev_20:6, Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8 where “the second death” is explained as “the lake of fire.” The idea is present in Dan_12:3; Joh_5:29 and is current in Jewish circles as in the Jerusalem Targum on Deu_33:6 and in Philo. It is not annihilation. The Christians put to death in the persecution will at least escape this second death (eternal punishment).​
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
45,016
13,959
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟1,003,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This verse does not describe anyone dying a second death.

The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.

It sure seems to be implied. What do you read it to mean? We conquer death through Christ.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This verse does not describe anyone dying a second death. Robertson's Word Pictures Rev 2:11Of the second death (ek tou thanatou tou deuterou). Ek here used for the agent or instrument as often (Rev_3:18; Rev_9:2; Rev_18:1). See Rev_20:6, Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8 where “the second death” is explained as “the lake of fire.” The idea is present in Dan_12:3; Joh_5:29 and is current in Jewish circles as in the Jerusalem Targum on Deu_33:6 and in Philo. It is not annihilation. The Christians put to death in the persecution will at least escape this second death (eternal punishment).

If God's power pervades His entire universe, where does that leave room for any lake of fire (eternal punishment) from the presence of God on the new earth???

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

the second death—"the lake of fire." "The death in life of the lost, as contrasted with the life in death of the saved" [TRENCH].

"The life of the damned is death" [AUGUSTINE].
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

The phrase, "the second death," is three times used elsewhere by John in this book Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8, but does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament. The words "death" and "to die," however, are not infrequently used to denote the future punishment of the wicked. Barnes' Notes

1:9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

1:9 They will undergo the penalty <5099> of eternal <166> destruction <3639>, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

In this passage the word destruction is qualified. It is " destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, " at his second coming, in the new eon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. In neither case is &#945;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; to be interpreted as everlasting or endless. Vincent: 2Th 1:9

Cast out from the presence of the Lord is the idea at the root of eternal death, the law of evil left to its unrestricted working, without one counteracting influence of the presence of God, who is the source of all light and holiness (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:44).
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

Shall suffer punishment (dikhn tisousin). Future active of old verb tinw, to pay penalty (dikhn, right, justice), here only in N.T., but apotinw once also to repay Philemon 1:19. In the papyri dikh is used for a case or process in law. This is the regular phrase in classic writers for paying the penalty.
Eternal destruction (oleqron aiwnion). Accusative case in apposition with dikhn (penalty). This phrase does not appear elsewhere in the N.T., but is in IV Macc. 10:15 ton aiwnion tou turannou oleqron the eternal destruction of the tyrant (Antiochus Epiphanes).
Robertson's Word Pictures

Only Aleph A Q (=B2) are complete, C lacking Revelation 1:1, 3:19-5:14, Revelation 7:14-17, 8:5-9:16, 10:10-11:3,14:13-18:2, 19:5-21, P lacking Rev. 16:12-17:1, 19:21-20:9, 22:6-21. Both C and P are palimpsests. In the 400 verses of the book "over 1,600 variants have been counted" (Moffatt).

Erasmus had only one cursive (of the twelfth century numbered Ir) for his first edition, and the last six verses of the Apocalypse, save verse 20, were a translation from the VulgateErasmus had only one cursive (of the twelfth century numbered Ir) for his first edition, and the last six verses of the Apocalypse, save verse 20, were a translation from the Vulgate. Robertson's Book Notes
 
Upvote 0

CherubRam

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2012
6,777
781
✟103,730.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
This verse does not describe anyone dying a second death.

Robertson's Word Pictures Rev 2:11
Of the second death (ek tou thanatou tou deuterou). Ek here used for the agent or instrument as often (Rev_3:18; Rev_9:2; Rev_18:1). See Rev_20:6, Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8 where “the second death” is explained as “the lake of fire.” The idea is present in Dan_12:3; Joh_5:29 and is current in Jewish circles as in the Jerusalem Targum on Deu_33:6 and in Philo. It is not annihilation. The Christians put to death in the persecution will at least escape this second death (eternal punishment).​
This says that death and the grave are done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment)
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Timothew
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This says that death and the grave are done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment)
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. But there is a scriptural resolution without any phoney "its figurative" gyrations.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the angel or demon of hell are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill is ended.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.

It sure seems to be implied. What do you read it to mean? We conquer death through Christ.

Please see my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post], [post=65877552]Post #10[/post], [post=65877562]Post #11[/post], and [post=65890969]Post #53[/post] this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This verse does not describe anyone dying a second death.

Robertson's Word Pictures Rev 2:11
Of the second death (ek tou thanatou tou deuterou). Ek here used for the agent or instrument as often (Rev_3:18; Rev_9:2; Rev_18:1). See Rev_20:6, Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8 where “the second death” is explained as “the lake of fire.” The idea is present in Dan_12:3; Joh_5:29 and is current in Jewish circles as in the Jerusalem Targum on Deu_33:6 and in Philo. It is not annihilation. The Christians put to death in the persecution will at least escape this second death (eternal punishment).​

It actually does describe a second death for those who are not victorious.
thanatou means death, deuterou means "the second one".

Death number one is the death a person has when they are struck by lightning or a Mack Truck. Or however the person dies, a heart attack. A Grand Piano falling on them from a 10 story building...You get the picture.

The resurrection follows this.

Death number two is when they stand before Jesus Christ on Judgment Day and are sentenced to death as the wages of their sin. Those who are in Christ will not be harmed by this second death, as we all are resurrected to eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟105,748.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This says that death and the grave are done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment)
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If God's power pervades His entire universe, where does that leave room for any lake of fire (or eternal torture) from the presence of God on the new earth???
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,128
6,154
EST
✟1,151,726.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It actually does describe a second death for those who are not victorious.
thanatou means death, deuterou means "the second one".

Death number one is the death a person has when they are struck by lightning or a Mack Truck. Or however the person dies, a heart attack. A Grand Piano falling on them from a 10 story building...You get the picture.

The resurrection follows this.

Death number two is when they stand before Jesus Christ on Judgment Day and are sentenced to death as the wages of their sin. Those who are in Christ will not be harmed by this second death, as we all are resurrected to eternal life.

No it does not describe a death. That is an inference from a negative statement "shall not be hurt by the second death." I know some folks like to quote Rom 6:23 over and over but that ignores other scripture. And Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, not "deaths," and not a "second death."

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

All, 100% of mankind, have sinned.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Since all men have sinned, all, 100% of mankind, will die. That satisfies Rom 6:23. None of these verses say that the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms are interchangeable, the lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire, which is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, 20:10 three living beings; the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, one the false prophet is a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No it does not describe a death. That is an inference from a negative statement "shall not be hurt by the second death."
How does it not describe a death when it specifically says those who overcome shall not be hurt by the second death?

It absolutely describes a death. The second death.
Reread the verse.
 
Upvote 0