Hell

[BobRyan]

I am always amused by your use of Isaiah 14 to prove that those in hell are alive and conscious. You always skip the context, here it is for you:

The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.’
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
​

Isaiah 14:8-9 ESV


The trees can talk in the very same passage that you use to "prove" that dead people are conscious.

Is 14
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning (Lucifer) , son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,

which speaks of Lucifer -- Satan ...

Ezek 28

‘Thus says the Lord God,“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

 

[he-man]

Here is the good seed that is sown.
Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Yes, it is God, who causes the sun to rise on EVIL, Who did Job say delivered him?
Job 16:11 God hath delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over into the hands of the wicked.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

And Here is the Serpent seed. Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

One must be utterly confused to think that Rev 12:9 occured before the time of John.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Do you not know a parable when you see one? Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, So who do you think the weeds are?

Yes. I know a parable and how to interpret one from KOINE GREEK, do you? Matthew tells you who the weeds are:
Mat 13:28And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, , Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The answer given by the Septuagint is clear; and, as in other cases of doubtful interpretation, I hold that it should be regarded as conclusive. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]After a brief statement of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]some facts relating to the use of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the neuter in the LXX, he continues: 'The masculine ο [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]πονηρος is used, as is also its Hebrew equivalent, to [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]designate a wicked man, when an individual is pointed out; [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]but it is never used in the Septuagint to designate the ' [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Evil [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]One.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]It certainly would not occur to any one familiar with [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the language of the Septuagint, to interpret the word as [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]equivalent to Satan; nor is it at all probable that in a [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gospel written specially for the use of Hebrew Christians [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the words του πονηρου would be employed in any other [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]sense than that generally, I may say universally, accepted [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]by readers of that Version.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Lightfoot P. 273-283 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Revision of [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the English Version of the New Testament[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Deliver us from evil.— [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](1) that the new rendering " the evil one " is an innovation in language; (2) that it narrows the broad, comprehensive sense of the Greek; (3) that it implies incompleteness in the deliverance already accomplished by our Lord; (4) that it has no counterpart or justification in the New Testament ; (5) that it is opposed to the interpretation adopted by all the Churches of Western Christendom ; and (6) that it absolutely ignores the safeguard supplied by the Doxology [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]there can be no doubt that the Revisers acted ultra vires in making the alteration; and that the general term evil is preferable to the evil one." [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Cook. The Revised Version...p. 61-62[/FONT][/FONT]​

Vapor dissolves into nothingness Do you understand Hebrew? Vapour, smoke, - qitor. Gen. 19. 28 smoke of the country wentup as the am. Smoke, kapnos.
Acts 2. 19 show wonders.. flre, and vapour of smoke [YLT]
Do you understand Hebrew?
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
<H3615> &#1499;&#1468;&#1500;&#1492; A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively to cease, be finished, perish

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away <H4414 &#1502;&#1500;&#1495; A primitive root; properly to rub to pieces or pulverize; intransitively to disappear as dust> like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those who do not see life will not be allowed that they may rest with Christ in the Kingdom.

Rev 14:11 And the vapor of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest <G372 from G373 repose H4494 no home &#1502;&#1504;&#1493;&#1495; (by Hebraism) abode> day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Der Alte]

I am always amused by your use of Isaiah 14 to prove that those in hell are alive and conscious. You always skip the context, here it is for you:

The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.’
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
​

Isaiah 14:8-9 ESV

The trees can talk in the very same passage that you use to "prove" that dead people are conscious.

And I am appalled that you continue to use this same illogical argument over and over after I have addressed and refuted it numerous times. The fact that one figure of speech i.e. "The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying," etc. does not prove that any other part of the passage is figurative. For example Jesus referred to Himself as a door, light, bread, a hen, but that doesn't make everything He said figurative. As I have shown from the Jewish Encyclopedia the ancient Jews understood Isaiah 14:8-9 to be literal. Do you suppose that you are more qualified to interpret the Jewish scriptures than they are? And this figurative argument does not fly with the Ezekiel passage I quoted in the same post. Ther are no talking inanimate objects in Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[Timothew]

And I am appalled that you continue to use this same illogical argument over and over...

Don't be appalled, learn.

I'm not saying that the obvious use of figurative language in verse 8 PROVES that verse 9 is also figurative. I'm saying that verse 9 doesn't prove that the dead are conscious in hell, because Isaiah was known to use figurative language. We don't know if verse 9 was figurative or literal. We do know that verse 8 is figurative, unless trees can really talk. So while Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that dead people really are dead, it also doesn't prove that dead people really are alive. So don't call this argument illogical. Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that the dead are alive and in torment in hell. Do you understand now?

 

[he-man]

Ther are no talking inanimate objects

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 and cast them down, with them that go down into the pit. 19) be thou laid with the uncircumcised. 20) slain by the sword: 21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;] they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.22) his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword
Eze 32:30-31(30) they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, with them that go down to the pit. (31)even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword,

Vapor dissolves into nothingness Do you understand Hebrew? Vapour, smoke, - qitor. Gen. 19. 28 smoke of the country wentup as the am. Smoke, kapnos.
Acts 2. 19 show wonders.. flre, and vapour of smoke [YLT]
Do you understand Hebrew?
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
<H3615> &#1499;&#1468;&#1500;&#1492; A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively to cease, be finished, perish

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away <H4414 &#1502;&#1500;&#1495; A primitive root; properly to rub to pieces or pulverize; intransitively to disappear as dust> like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those who do not see life will not be allowed that they may rest with Christ in the Kingdom.

Rev 14:11 And the vapor of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest <G372 from G373 repose H4494 no home &#1502;&#1504;&#1493;&#1495; (by Hebraism) abode> day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Der Alte]

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 and cast them down, with them that go down into the pit. 19) be thou laid with the uncircumcised. 20) slain by the sword: 21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;] they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.22) his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword
Eze 32:30-31(30) they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, with them that go down to the pit. (31)even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword,

Vapor dissolves into nothingness Do you understand Hebrew? Vapour, smoke, - qitor. Gen. 19. 28 smoke of the country wentup as the am. Smoke, kapnos.
Acts 2. 19 show wonders.. flre, and vapour of smoke [YLT]
Do you understand Hebrew?
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
<H3615> &#1499;&#1468;&#1500;&#1492; A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively to cease, be finished, perish

Irrelevant fire, smoke and vapor are not mentioned in Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31. Do you understand Hebrew?

&#1506;&#1493;&#1499;&#1512; &#1489;&#1497;&#1514;&#1493; &#1497;&#1504;&#1495;&#1500;&#1470;&#1512;&#1493;&#1495; &#1493;&#1506;&#1489;&#1491; &#1488;&#1493;&#1497;&#1500; &#1500;&#1495;&#1499;&#1501;&#1470;&#1500;&#1489;&#1475;​

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away <H4414 &#1502;&#1500;&#1495; A primitive root; properly to rub to pieces or pulverize; intransitively to disappear as dust> like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Irrelevant Isa 51:6, 2 Thes 1:9 does not change anything in Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31.

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those who do not see life will not be allowed that they may rest with Christ in the Kingdom.

Irrelevant 1 Tim 6:9, Joh 3:36 does not change anything in Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31.

Rev 14:11 And the vapor of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest <G372 from G373 repose H4494 no home &#1502;&#1504;&#1493;&#1495; (by Hebraism) abode> day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Irrelevant! Rev 14:11 does not change anything in Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31.

 

[FredVB]

Hell as lasting just penalty to wickedness of people is a theme in the scriptures from Yahweh's revelation. Isaiah 14:9 shows consciousness of those who have departed with the arrival of the wicked ruler from this world joining them, after death. Jesus Christ spoke repeatedly of hell, in warning listeners who had yet to repent from life of sin. Even with them calling others fools inappropriately was enough to endanger them with hell fire, Matthew 5:22. He spoke showing there was fire of torment to face after this life. This fire, even though it can be picturesque of torment, is unquenchable, with their worm never dying, that is, the torment keeps going on, without ending, Mark 9:43-48. They are sent to the torment by the One who ends their lives, so it is suffered once they are dead, so the consciousness for that goes on, Luke 12:5. Jesus uses the imagery of the torment and there is no reason for choosing that except if such continuing torment were true, Luke 16:22-23. Imagery the Lord uses for this is with outer darkness and everlasting fire, there is nowhere that real fire that we can understand being around anyone can leave them in darkness, but this designates the everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:30,41,46. The eternal fire is suffered, Jude 7. The suffering going on day and night forever is shown clearly from Revelation 20:10, where all not in the book of life go .

 

[BobRyan]

God is not impotent! He destroyed the world to destroy all mankind that was evil at that time. God would not have allowed anything evil, including some so-called "serpent seed" to survive the flood.



The serpent is the serpent himself not his seed. If there ever were any humans who were the seed of the serpent they would have been destroyed in the flood. God did exactly what He said He would do.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.​

True - but the Devil and his angels are still alive.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:28 - God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell.

Ezek 28 - even the devil is wiped out - to be "no more".

 

[he-man]

Hell as lasting just penalty to wickedness of people is a theme in the scriptures from Yahweh's revelation. Isaiah 14:9 shows consciousness of those who have departed with the arrival of the wicked ruler from this world joining them, after death.

No eternal torture for the lamp of the wicked!

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Psa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Psa 1:5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

 

[CherubRam]

No eternal torture for the lamp of the wicked!

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Psa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

3 When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Psa 1:5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

If there is life in Hell, then people would know each other by name. If the wicked parish in His (Yahwah's) presence, then how can they be alive in Hell? Do you think DA will get it this time?

 

[Der Alte]

Matt 10:28 - God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell.

There is not one verse in the entire Bible which speaks of even one soul being destroyed. No not one.

Ezek 28 - even the devil is wiped out - to be "no more".

Whether the devil is or is not destroyed at some time does not prove anything about the eternal fate of people.

 

[FredVB]

Being in hell does not mean for those going there that they are alive, that is a physical state, but that they, the dead, are conscious, and suffer torment. They are likely to be in isolation, not having any with which to have any relationship.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Whether the devil is or is not destroyed at some time does not prove anything about the eternal fate of people.

If the Devil himself is destroyed, then there's certainly no reason to not think the same eternal fate goes to unbelieving men, especially with verses such as there that say straight-up the wicked will be destroyed:


Philippians 3:18-20. In 19 it says their destiny is destruction.
For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,



2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


Psalms 37:38
But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

 

[Der Alte]

If the Devil himself is destroyed, then there's certainly no reason to not think the same eternal fate goes to unbelieving men, especially with verses such as there that say straight-up the wicked will be destroyed:

Supposition and speculation.

Philippians 3:18-20. In 19 it says their destiny is destruction.
For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Have you read any of my posts? Can you give me a good reason why I should read and interact with your post when you ignore mine? See for example my [post=65877433]post #4[/post] this thread.

&#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;/Appolumi the word translated "destruction" occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings from the BAGD lexicon.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

&#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953; for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Lexicon online​

Psalms 37:38
But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

This verse is often quoted out-of-context trying to prove annihilation of the wicked at the judgment. Psalm 37 does not refer to the eternal fate of the wicked but what happens to Israel's enemies in this world.

Psa 37:1 <A Psalm of David.> Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.​

Evildoers are cutdown like grass and wither like herbs, and are cut off none of this means annihilation.

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Israel can only see what happens in this world their enemies are killed and Israel cannot see them anymore.
Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

israel's enemies attaack with the sword but are killed with their own swords. The enemies bows are broken. The arms of the wicked are broken. Nothing about annihilation here.

 

[Der Alte]

If there is life in Hell, then people would know each other by name. If the wicked parish in His (Yahwah's) presence, then how can they be alive in Hell? Do you think DA will get it this time?

What is there for me to get? A few out-of-context proof texts which do not say what the poster thinks they do. For example, a lamp that is put out does not cease to exist. The lamp is still there, it just does not give off any light.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[SarahsKnight]

Same old accusations of irrelevant and/or out-of-context and/or sheer speculation.


I gave a simple, straight-forward answer to your earlier opinion that

Whether the devil is or is not destroyed at some time does not prove anything about the eternal fate of people.

by giving verses that strongly suggest if not outright say the ultimate fate of the wicked is to be destroyed. But I forgot that only your interpretation of destroy stands (and don't give me that post again; half of terms easily sound more like literal death supporting our view).

It's so obvious you just up and turned your suggestion of destruction around to refer to eternal torment just to be able to post that again and blow me off with sounding like you're the only intelligent arguer here, with sentences such as this:

Have you read any of my posts? Can you give me a good reason why I should read and interact with your post when you ignore mine?

One good reason? Easy. What I posted was a straightforward answer in the form of example verses in reply to what I thought you meant as a straight-forward statement. There's no reason for me to think you meant destroy in your post, about the eternal fate of the wicked not being indicated whether or not Satan is destroyed, to mean what the traditional argument for hell means by destroy (eternal conscious ruin/suffering/ect.). You had to have meant destroy in the way that the annihilationist side of this argument would have meant it, otherwise as the arguer of the traditional side your post makes no sense, because that would be you asking for proof that the wicked humans suffer the same fate as the eternal torment of Satan. But no, instead you just say that's not what I meant to make me look like a moron who is incapable of understanding your sophisticated point of view.


But whatever, before this time I tried being civil and addressing your arguments before in some way without being passive-aggressively insulting in spite of the fact that you just act like everyone else is foolish and missing plain points all of the time. So I'm out of this discussion because I'm not learning anything new here and no one is ever going to concede any point no matter what anyone else says and there's no sense in my getting angry over posts like yours.

For you, CherubRam, Timothew, and others, you guys keep arguing for our theological stance if you want, but I don't have the heart for arguing it like this.

 

[CherubRam]

What is there for me to get? A few out-of-context proof texts which do not say what the poster thinks they do. For example, a lamp that is put out does not cease to exist. The lamp is still there, it just does not give off any light.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

In regards to your quotes. First of all, you are reading a parable. The ground is astir from insects. In the final judgment ALL are resurrected to be judged. During that the sheep are separated from the goats. Then the sheep receive eternal life in heaven, and the condemned are cut off from the living. If you have one bible verse that says the condemned are "tormented" for an eternity, and all the others say they are no more; then what should you believe? In addition to that, Hell is not a Hebrew word. And addition to that, Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Think about it!

 

[Der Alte]

In regards to your quotes. First of all, you are reading a parable. The ground is astir from insects. In the final judgment ALL are resurrected to be judged. During that the sheep are separated from the goats. Then the sheep receive eternal life in heaven, and the condemned are cut off from the living.

Jesus did not say "cut off from the living," He said "eternal punishment, Mt 25:46, Jesus also said,

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

If you have one bible verse that says the condemned are "tormented" for an eternity, and all the others say they are no more; then what should you believe?

As I have shown repeatedly there is more than one verse which supports "tormented for eternity" and I have also shown that you have not provided any verses which clearly say different.

In addition to that, Hell is not a Hebrew word. And addition to that, Hell has never been a teaching in Orthodox Judaism. Think about it!

Please tell me how you supposedly know what you think you know about orthodox Judaism? I seriously doubt that you know much at all about "Orthodox Judaism" you make up your own meaning and pronunciation of Hebrew words.You evidently know virtually nothing about Jewish history. Actually none of the English words in our Bibles occur in Orthodox Judaism but that is irrelevant. You keep saying what is and is not a teaching in Orthodox Judaism but you never seem to provide any evidence. I have proved several times that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus did believe in a place of eternal, unending punishment of the wicked and they called iit both Gehinnom and Sheol. And you have not and cannot prove that wrong.

 

[Aldebaran]

Perhaps this passage will shed some light on what is meant in the bible by "death". It doesn't always mean a state on non-existence or lack of consciousness. Ephesians 2.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions&#8212;it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

So even now, the people who are on earth and are not in Christ are considered dead because they are still in their sins. Only in Christ do we have life.