Hell

[Der Alte]

Reminder all the above Hell, no! arguments above have been addressed and refuted.

What God created He can destroy but wait I can't find the scripture which says God destroys even one soul in hell. See my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post], above.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on the fate of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

 

[Der Alte]

Previous post continued.

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave or perish, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave or perish, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 And he [Abraham] said unto him, [the rich man] If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[SarahsKnight]

So the chaff being burned up does not relate to punishment of individuals but the removal of the undesirable from believers

Der Alter you just told me this one or two pages ago in relation to Matthew 3:12 when I mentioned that it makes little sense for the traditionalist side to see the phrase "burn up" as still meaning eternal torment and not being utterly consumed, and yet at the beginning of the first of your last two posts I saw Matthew 3:12 one of the example verses you used as to what Jesus says about the fate of the wicked. Now do you think it is referring to removing the undesirable elements from a believer or is it talking about what will happen to the wicked?

And if the latter, well, how does it help you to use a verse with phrase "burn up"to indicate proof toward what you believe about this subject?



And you and he-man can go back and forth pasting the same Jewish beliefs about Gehenna and Greek definitions of destruction day after day, but it's obvious neither of you are going to cave, so can we please just drop the debate and accept each other's differing beliefs or start looking at it from another viewpoint?

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter you just told me this one or two pages ago in relation to Matthew 3:12 when I mentioned that it makes little sense for the traditionalist side to see the phrase "burn up" as still meaning eternal torment and not being utterly consumed, and yet at the beginning of the first of your last two posts I saw Matthew 3:12 one of the example verses you used as to what Jesus says about the fate of the wicked. Now do you think it is referring to removing the undesirable elements from a believer or is it talking about what will happen to the wicked?

And if the latter, well, how does it help you to use a verse with phrase "burn up"to indicate proof toward what you believe about this subject?

Please read the first sentence in the post. "Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on the fate of the wicked." All the passages speak of punishment but not all of the passages directly address "eternal punishment." I think I said something like the chaff is not something distinct from the wheat but it is the stems, leaves, and husks, the parts of the wheat that are not used and that the chaff being burned up is similar to the passage in Corinthians where the works are judged by fire. The works are burned up but the Christian is saved.

And you and he-man can go back and forth pasting the same Jewish beliefs about Gehenna and Greek definitions of destruction day after day, but it's obvious neither of you are going to cave, so can we please just drop the debate and accept each other's differing beliefs or start looking at it from another viewpoint?

Tell you what if you can get the folks who keep posting the same false arguments over and over and over supporting Universalism and Annihilationism I will quit exposing them as false. But I note you only chose to try to shut me up and not the others, I can see how objective you are.

In response to some "reminders' posted above. All the reminders have been addressed and refuted in this thread. http://www.christianforums.com/t7829376-6/#post65890969

 

[CherubRam]

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [hell / Gehenna.
The word Gehenna is used as a parable to mean eternal destruction.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?


As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.

The number of times "Hell" appears in the English Bible
Translations


Bible Translations
Old Testament
New Testament
Total's
"Authorized" King James Version
31
23
54
New King James Version
19
13
32
American Standard Version
0
13
13
New American Standard Bible
0
13
13
Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
New Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
Revised English Bible
0
13
13
New Living Translation
0
13
13
Amplified
0
13
13
New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
0
14
14
Darby
0
12
12
New Century Version
0
12
12
Wesley's New Testament (1755)

0
0
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

0
0
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

0
0
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
0
0
0
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

0
0
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
0
0
0
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
0
0
0
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

0
0
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
0

0
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

0
0
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

0
0
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

0
0
Western N.T. (1926)

0
0
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

0
0
Concordant Literal NT (1983)

0
0
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

0
0
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

0
0
New American Bible (1970)
0
0
0
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
0
0
0
Tanakh. The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
0

0
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

0
0
Christian Bible (1991)
0
0
0
World English Bible (in progress)
0
0
0
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

0
0
0
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)

0
0
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

0
0
Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
Hades is the Greek god of the underworld.

Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδη&#962, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.


Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.

Luke 16:23
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)


2 Peter 2:4
New International Version (NIV)

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Footnotes:
a.2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b.2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
Catholic Gnosticism.
The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.
Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
The Rich Man And Lazarus With Commentary.
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahuah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahuah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dimwit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahuah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Yahuah in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Theophilus is the name or honorary title of the person to whom the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are addressed (Luke 1:3, Acts 1:1)

It is unanimously agreed that both Luke and Acts were originally written in Koine Greek, and that "Theophilos," as it appears therein, means friend of God or (be)loved by God or loving God in the Greek language.

No one knows the true identity of Theophilus who wrote the story, and there are more than several conjectures and traditions around an identity.

In all there are about eight traditions based upon that story. Again I say: Hell has never been a doctrinal belief in Judaism.

Don't you think if Yahshua was to introduce a new doctrine that he would at least explain the story?

 

[SarahsKnight]

But I note you only chose to try to shut me up and not the others, I can see how objective you are.

No, I am pretty sure I mentioned both you and he-man in that paragraph where I said no one's going to cave, so, actually, I was kind of trying to be objective.

 

[he-man]

Now do you think it is referring to removing the undesirable elements from a believer or is it talking about what will happen to the wicked? ..so can we please just drop the debate and accept each other's differing beliefs or start looking at it from another viewpoint?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
But for the wicked Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.

LSJ: destroy, make an end of, and of living beings, kill, νῆάς τὀλέσας καὶ πάντας Ἀχαιούς Il.8.498 , cf. Od.23.319;
Med., I perish, come to an end, and of living beings, die, esp. a violent death, ἀπαἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο Il.24.725
(mid. and intrans. aor. and perf.) perish, die

SLATER: ¨¨ destroy τρεῖς τε καὶ δέκ ἄνδρας ὀλέσαις (sc. Οἰνόμαο&#962 O. 1.79

MIDDLELIDDELL: ὄλλυμι from Root !ολ
A Act. = Lat. perdo,
1. to destroy, make an end of , Hom., Trag.:—also of doing away with evil, ὤλεσεν νόσον Aesch. II to lose , θυμόν, ψυχήν, μένος, ἦτορ ὀλέσαι to lose life, Hom.; Mid., = Lat. pereo,

1. to perish, come to an end , Hom.; also c. acc. cogn., κακὸν οἶτον, κακὸν μόρον ὀλέσθαι to die by an evil death, Il.:— ὄλοιο, ὄλοισθε mayʼst thou, may ye, perish! an imprecation,

2. to be ruined, undone , Hom., Hom. III perf. ὄλωλα, in sense of Mid., to have perished, to be undone, ruined , Il., Aesch., etc.; τῶν ὀλωλότων of the dead , Aesch.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy <G622 &#8004;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;> the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
&#7936;&#960;&#972;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;, &#7936;&#960;&#972;&#955;&#955;&#8161;&#956;&#953;, &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#8182;, &#7936;&#960;&#974;&#955;&#949;&#963;&#945; (trans) or &#7936;&#960;&#969;&#955;&#972;&#956;&#951;&#957; (intrans), &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#974;&#955;&#949;&#954;&#945; (trans) or &#7936;&#960;&#972;&#955;&#969;&#955;&#945; (intrans)&#962; &#935;&#935;&#935;, &#935;&#935;&#935;, kill, (mid. and intrans.) die, cease to exist

LSJ: Prep. postponed in Od.9.534 :—stronger form of &#8004;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;, destroy utterly, kill, in Hom. mostly of death in battle, &#7936;&#960;&#974;&#955;&#949;&#963;&#949; &#955;&#945;&#8056;&#957; &#7944;&#967;&#945;&#953;&#8182;&#957; 11.5.758 , al.;

Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
Luk 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed out.

Jas. 4. 12 who is able to save and to destroy
Jude 5 afterward destroyed them that believed not

Rev. 8. 9 third part of the ships were destroyed xi. 18 destroy them which destroy the earth
50. To destroy utterly, &#949;&#958;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#952;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#959; exoloithreuo.
2 Ch.3x. x until they had utterly destroyed them all DESTROYED
One cut off, .’m dummah. •Eze. 27. 32 like the destroyed in the midst of.

Th. 2. 8 shall destroy with the brightness.of his
Heb. 2. 14 through death he might destroy him that
Dan. 7. It beast was slain, and his body destroyed

Re will miserably destroy those wicked 22. 7 [YLT]

but not for those who believe:

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]belief, trust, conviction, [/FONT][/FONT] which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[CherubRam]

Paganism teaches that there is life in Hell. If there is life in Hell, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. As for me, I will trust what God says. You will surly die.

Serpent Seed
Genesis 3
14 And Yahwah, God of the living said to the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly you will go, and you will eat dirt all the days of your life:
15 And I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; you will strike his heel, and he will crush your head.
My interpretation. Michael.

So who is the Serpent Seed?

 

[Der Alte]

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?
...

The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

Wrong! There was no Catholic church until 1075 AD the NT was canonized at least 1500 years earlier. Words have more than one meaning.

he word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahuah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

The word is "surely!" Your proof text "the dead know nothing," refers to what happens under the sun, in this lifetime, not the eternal fate of mankind. A form of the phrase "under the sun" occurs 5 times in Eccl 9, the entire passage refers to earthly events. This clearly shows your argument is fallacious.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is long ago perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.​

If a man was being tormented if fire, he would not be thinking logically, it would not be unheard of for him to ask for even a drop of water.

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahuah. There is no life for them afterward.

It was a sin for a Jew to ignore his poor brother. Lazarus didn't even get the crumbs from the rich man's table. You claiming to be messianic should know this.

Deu 15:8 but thou shalt surely open thy hand unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need in that which he wanteth.

Deu 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land; therefore I command thee, saying: 'Thou shalt surely open thy hand unto thy poor and needy brother, in thy land.'​

These are obviously the words of a dimwit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahuah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Yahuah in matters of life and death.

Meaningless argument. The story of the prodigal son in Luke 15 is not introduced as a parable, is never explained and God is not mentioned.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

More empty arguments, no, zero, none evidence. Just repetitious unsupported opinions and assumptions. Long before the Babylonian captivity the writer of Proverbs believed that someone could be delivered from Sheol, i.e. hell.

Pro 23:13-14
(13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.​

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.

Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

No, zero, none evidence to support any of this. This is a common ploy for false doctrines when scripture contradicts thier assumptions/presuppositions then it must be pagan.

In all there are about eight traditions based upon that story. Again I say: Hell has never been a doctrinal belief in Judaism.

Don't you think if Yahshua was to introduce a new doctrine that he would at least explain the story?

More arguments with no evidence. Nothing but unsupported opinions and assumptions.

Meaningless argument. The story of the prodigal son in Luke 15 is not introduced as a parable, is never explained and God is not mentioned.

 

[Der Alte]

No, I am pretty sure I mentioned both you and he-man in that paragraph where I said no one's going to cave, so, actually, I was kind of trying to be objective.

Your post was addressed only to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Paganism teaches that there is life in Hell. If there is life in Hell, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. As for me, I will trust what God says. You will surly die.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

So who is the Serpent Seed?

If there was a literal "serpent seed" it would have been destroyed in the flood. God would not have destroyed the entire world because of sin and leave a literal "serpent seed" alive.

 

[CherubRam]

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

If there was a literal "serpent seed" it would have been destroyed in the flood. God would not have destroyed the entire world because of sin and leave a literal "serpent seed" alive.

The Serpent seed survived and lives on through Noah's seed.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[Der Alte]

The Serpent seed survived and lives on through Noah's seed.

God is not impotent! He destroyed the world to destroy all mankind that was evil at that time. God would not have allowed anything evil, including some so-called "serpent seed" to survive the flood.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The serpent is the serpent himself not his seed. If there ever were any humans who were the seed of the serpent they would have been destroyed in the flood. God did exactly what He said He would do.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.​

 

[he-man]

Reminder all the above Hell, no! arguments above have been addressed and refuted. Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [&#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Vapor dissolves into nothingness Do you understand Hebrew? [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Vapour, smoke, - qitor.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Gen. 19. 28 smoke of the country wentup as the am.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Smoke, kapnos. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Acts 2. 19 show wonders.. flre, and vapour of smoke [YLT][/FONT]
Do you understand Hebrew? [/FONT]
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
<H3615> &#1499;&#1468;&#1500;&#1492; A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively to cease, be finished, perish

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away <H4414 &#1502;&#1500;&#1495; A primitive root; properly to rub to pieces or pulverize; intransitively to disappear as dust> like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those who do not see life will not be allowed that they may rest with Christ in the Kingdom.

Rev 14:11 And the vapor of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest <G372 from G373 repose H4494 no home &#1502;&#1504;&#1493;&#1495; (by Hebraism) abode> day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest <G373 repose> from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? <G2663 &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#769;&#960;&#945;&#965;&#963;&#953;&#962; reposing down, that is, (by Hebraism) abode>

Those who do not have life will not be invited to the SUPPER of the Lord. Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Jer 12:9 Mine heritage is unto me as a speckled bird, the birds round about are against her; come ye, assemble all the beasts of the field, come to devour.

10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

12 The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.

Isa_34:6; Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[CherubRam]

God is not impotent! He destroyed the world to destroy all mankind that was evil at that time. God would not have allowed anything evil, including some so-called "serpent seed" to survive the flood.



The serpent is the serpent himself not his seed. If there ever were any humans who were the seed of the serpent they would have been destroyed in the flood. God did exactly what He said He would do.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.​

Here is the good seed that is sown.
Matthew 5:45
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

And Here is the Serpent seed.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Do you not know a parable when you see one?

Matthew 13:24
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.

Matthew 13:27
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

Matthew 13:37
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,


So who do you think the weeds are?

 

[Aldebaran]

Here is the good seed that is sown.
Matthew 5:45
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

And Here is the Serpent seed.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Do you not know a parable when you see one?

Matthew 13:24
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.

Matthew 13:27
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

Matthew 13:37
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,


So who do you think the weeds are?

The weeds are the unbelievers; those who have rejected salvation through Jesus Christ. Some of them pose as Christians within the church, but deny knowledge of Christ. They only hold to a form of godliness. It's not Christianity that is their religion, but churchianity.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the good seed that is sown.
Matthew 5:45
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

And Here is the Serpent seed.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Do you not know a parable when you see one?

Matthew 13:24
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.

Matthew 13:27
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

Matthew 13:37
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,

So who do you think the weeds are?

There is no, zero, none human being who is actually, literally the seed of the serpent. There very well may be people who follow the serpent and who are figuratively called the people of the evil one. God destroyed all existing evil people in the flood, if there ever were literal seed of the serpent, and I doubt there ever were, they would have been destroyed in the flood. God said He would destroy evil mankind and unlike some I believe God could and did do exactly what He said He would. I don't care how many out-of-context verses anyone posts which makes some reference to seeds.

 

[CherubRam]

The weeds are the unbelievers; those who have rejected salvation through Jesus Christ. Some of them pose as Christians within the church, but deny knowledge of Christ. They only hold to a form of godliness. It's not Christianity that is their religion, but churchianity.

Not only is it those who have gone their own way, but it is also those who have introduced pagan beliefs into Judaism; and Christianity. Now I leave it to you who read this to figure that out for your selves.

 

[CherubRam]

There is no, zero, none human being who is actually, literally the seed of the serpent. There very well may be people who follow the serpent and who are figuratively called the people of the evil one. God destroyed all existing evil people in the flood, if there ever were literal seed of the serpent, and I doubt there ever were, they would have been destroyed in the flood. God said He would destroy evil mankind and unlike some I believe God could and did do exactly what He said He would. I don't care how many out-of-context verses anyone posts which makes some reference to seeds.

DA. Good and evil comes from mankind. We are the good and bad seed.

 

[Timothew]

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming​

I am always amused by your use of Isaiah 14 to prove that those in hell are alive and conscious. You always skip the context, here it is for you:

The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
&#8216;Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.&#8217;
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
​

Isaiah 14:8-9 ESV


The trees can talk in the very same passage that you use to "prove" that dead people are conscious.​