Hell

[Der Alte]

They didn't believe ECT. Scripture in the old testament is very clear. The soul that sins dies.

If one claims to follow the Jewish faith, they should be mindful the historical evidence proves them wrong.

Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that here is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. His teaching did not correct them, thus their belief in hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

 

[CherubRam]

If one presumes to teach others they should at least spell words correctly. The serpent said "You will not surely die." And you are making a deliberately false accusation. I have said a number of times.

• The wages of sin is death.
• All [100% of mankind] have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
• It is appointed unto man [100% of mankind] once [not twice] to die, after that the judgment.

The scripture does not say "It is appointed unto man once to die, after that the judgment, then a second death!"



Perhaps you should take this scripture to heart. You said, "If there are living beings in a place called Hell, then God lied." Have you ever read Rev 20:10?

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Three living beings, one the false prophet, is a person, are cast into the lake of fire, but they do not die, they are not destroyed, they are "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

You really need to discover the difference between literal and parable. For example, can you tell me what the beast are? Is there day and night in Hell? Is the word "fire" ever used to mean anything else? Can the "beast" be literally tormented? You really need to take to heart what I have said here. Please take the time to study what I have said here.

 

[Der Alte]

You really need to discover the difference between literal and parable. For example, can you tell me what the beast are? Is there day and night in Hell? Is the word "fire" ever used to mean anything else? Can the "beast" be literally tormented? You really need to take to heart what I have said here. Please take the time to study what I have said here.

The SPAM-Fig copout. Whenever scripture, as written, contradicts false doctrine, just blow it off as symbolic, parable, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Fire means fire unless scripture clearly shows it to be figurative such as in Acts 2. What do you think the fire means in revelation?

I don't care what the beast was. God said the beast was cast into the lake and would be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is no scriptural reason whatsoever to not accept it as literal. God said day and night there is no scriptural reason to not accept that. The scripture you think proves there was no day or night does not say what you think it does.

 

[he-man]

You really need to discover the difference between literal and parable. Can the "beast" be literally tormented? You really need to take to heart what I have said here. Please take the time to study what I have said here.

Rev 19:19 the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

see Is Hell Really Eternal? http://www.christianforums.com/t7829294/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7789990/
see also Hell http://www.christianforums.com/t7829376/
see Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible http://www.christianforums.com/t7803581/

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"

GEHENNA: The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are in it, the seas, and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.

Think again... 2Th 1:9 who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength,"

2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

Isa 11:4 But He shall judge the poor in righteousness, and shall decide rightly for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and He shall cause the wicked to die with the breath of His lip.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "

Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11(Sanh. 108b). Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Let's look at Isa 66:24, it says "dead bodies" and it says the worm will not die because they are feeding on the dead carcasses.

Then they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be extinguished, and they will remain an object of revulsion to all humanity."

Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

It is clear that the ungodly will not be allowed to face God, nor will they be able to stand up face to face with Him. Ungodly means they have never known God and have refused to acknowledge Him.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand up in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous
However, Listen to what Job says, in describing his affliction:

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

SATAN: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463
SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Der Alte]

...GEHENNA: The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry."
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Now lets read the parts of that article you omitted.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Same link as above.​

Think again... 2Th 1:9 who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength,"

Destruction in this verse cannot mean annihilation. If something no longer exists it cannot be "from the face of the Lord" or "from" anything else.

2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.

The lawless one (1). Here "consume" simply means "kill."

Isa 11:4 But He shall judge the poor in righteousness, and shall decide rightly for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and He shall cause the wicked to die with the breath of His lip.

"shall decide rightly for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and He shall cause the wicked [of the earth] to die with the breath of His lip." Die not destroyed or annihilated.

Let's look at Isa 66:24, it says "dead bodies" and it says the worm will not die because they are feeding on the dead carcasses.

Then they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be extinguished, and they will remain an object of revulsion to all humanity."

Nothing you say can refute this.

The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,

Jewish Encyclopedia​

Or this.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

"Some [shall awake] to shame and everlasting contempt." Everlasting shame and contempt not awake then die again.

Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

Death in this world. Says nothing about the eternal fate of the disobedient of israel

It is clear that the ungodly will not be allowed to face God, nor will they be able to stand up face to face with Him. Ungodly means they have never known God and have refused to acknowledge Him.

Unsupported opinion.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand up in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Says nothing about the eternal fate of the ungodly.

However, Listen to what Job says, in describing his affliction:

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

And your point is?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer [שׁחת] to destroy.[חבל]

This verse does not say what you think it does.

H7843
שׁחת
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

H2254
חבל
châbal
khaw-bal'
A primitive root; to wind tightly (as a rope), that is, to bind; specifically by a pledge; figuratively to pervert, destroy; also to writhe in pain (especially of parturition): - X at all, band, bring forth, (deal) corrupt (-ly) destroy, offend, lay to (take a) pledge, spoil, travail, X very, withhold.​

SATAN: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463

The part of the Jewish Encyclopedia Satan article that you omitted.

Such a view [Satan as a distinct being] is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).

SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

 

[he-man]

see deleted

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Too bad NONE of what you said is found in scripture.
<snip to save space>
So with all due respect, you can believe the pagan gibberish that you have been taught OR you can open your bible, seek the Fathers face, ask for truth and believe what HE tells you.

Scripture never tells us that we are not to use our minds or good common sense. Nor does it say the collective ideas we have about God, reality, purpose of man, ...etc do not have to support each other. In fact if what we hold to be true has any meaning, then those collective ideas/beliefs should ALL support each other.

God only said that creation was VERY good after He made man. Clearly Scripture in recording that for us indicates a special relationship between God and man.
these things still must be true, even if not recorded in Scripture.

Scripture records creation was ONLY "very good" after God made man. It does not say creation could be better. It does not say God did not make it the way He wanted or that He did not do His Best or that the way He made man was not perfect or that man could be better or that we could change into something else.

So if man as He created us did not have immortal soul, what was His Purpose for making us and what is our purpose and how is that Good?

Tie back to the thread, if our purpose for existing is to love, serve and know the Supreme Good, then it follows that to render oneself, by one's own will in this life, eternally incapable of achieving that purpose is very much putting oneself in a Hell (fire, suffering...etc whatever one understands Hell to be). If we do not have immortal souls, what is the purpose of our existence?

 

[he-man]

Now lets read the parts of that article you omitted.

see Is Hell Really Eternal? http://www.christianforums.com/t7829294/
http://www.christianforums.com/t7789990/
see also Hell http://www.christianforums.com/t7829376/
see Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible http://www.christianforums.com/t7803581/

However, Listen to what Job says, in describing his affliction:

Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger. 18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer <H7843> ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).
[&#1513;&#1473;&#1495;&#1514;] to destroy.<H2254>[&#1495;&#1489;&#1500;] corrupt (-ly) destroy

SATAN: Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.

In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. xxi. 1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account (II Sam. xxiv. 1) speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel.

Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism (Stave, "Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum," pp. 253 et seq.). An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor" (Schrader, "K. A. T." 3d ed., p. 463
SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Let's look at Isa 66:24, it says "dead bodies" and it says the worm will not die because they are feeding on the dead carcasses.

Then they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be extinguished, and they will remain an object of revulsion to all humanity."

Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge his floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; butHe will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[BukiRob]

Scripture never tells us that we are not to use our minds or good common sense. Nor does it say the collective ideas we have about God, reality, purpose of man, ...etc do not have to support each other. In fact if what we hold to be true has any meaning, then those collective ideas/beliefs should ALL support each other.

God only said that creation was VERY good after He made man. Clearly Scripture in recording that for us indicates a special relationship between God and man.
these things still must be true, even if not recorded in Scripture.

Scripture records creation was ONLY "very good" after God made man. It does not say creation could be better. It does not say God did not make it the way He wanted or that He did not do His Best or that the way He made man was not perfect or that man could be better or that we could change into something else.

So if man as He created us did not have immortal soul, what was His Purpose for making us and what is our purpose and how is that Good?

Tie back to the thread, if our purpose for existing is to love, serve and know the Supreme Good, then it follows that to render oneself, by one's own will in this life, eternally incapable of achieving that purpose is very much putting oneself in a Hell (fire, suffering...etc whatever one understands Hell to be). If we do not have immortal souls, what is the purpose of our existence?

G-d created man KNOWING he would fall. Knowing he would fall, G-d knew man would be redeemed. Knowing he would need redeemed he G-d knew he would send Yeshua to be the means through which man would be redeemed. Yeshua was with the Father at the creation of it all, knowing from its earliest inception that he would come, walk uprightly before Adonai, be the eternal sacrifice, die and raise on the third day.

G-d did all of this because he wanted man of his full free will to chose to worship and walk uprightly before Adonai.

You keep asking the question and arguing against scripture. It is plain as the nose on your face that Scripture in MULTIPLE places states that G-d alone is immortal and that Yeshua GIVES eternal life to HIS sheep.

Show me 1 single solitary scripture that plainly states man is immortal. YOU CANT FIND ONE

The BETTER question is how could a G-d proclaim to be merciful and be the full expression of love create a being that he KNEW many would reject based on a system of FAITH (meaning there is no empirical evidence of G-d as Adonai can not be seen, measured etc) then create man with an immortal soul so that when those who failed to recognize or reject would face an eternal existence of torment? That is not love, that is sadistic

 

[DrBubbaLove]

G-d created man KNOWING he would fall. Knowing he would fall, G-d knew man would be redeemed. Knowing he would need redeemed he G-d knew he would send Yeshua to be the means through which man would be redeemed. Yeshua was with the Father at the creation of it all, knowing from its earliest inception that he would come, walk uprightly before Adonai, be the eternal sacrifice, die and raise on the third day.

G-d did all of this because he wanted man of his full free will to chose to worship and walk uprightly before Adonai.

You keep asking the question and arguing against scripture. It is plain as the nose on your face that Scripture in MULTIPLE places states that G-d alone is immortal and that Yeshua GIVES eternal life to HIS sheep.

Show me 1 single solitary scripture that plainly states man is immortal. YOU CANT FIND ONE

The BETTER question is how could a G-d proclaim to be merciful and be the full expression of love create a being that he KNEW many would reject based on a system of FAITH (meaning there is no empirical evidence of G-d as Adonai can not be seen, measured etc) then create man with an immortal soul so that when those who failed to recognize or reject would face an eternal existence of torment? That is not love, that is sadistic

I see. So the belief then is that God's Words are empty and He cannot do what it is said He said & did in the Creation story. Interesting view of what one considers is "in" Scripture.

So if the Words there are meaningless, why should one feel the need to find every belief held to be true written there?

BTW no one said God does not have complete Knowledge, that was not the question nor does it address how one could see man as the pinnacle of God's Creation of the World and that be Very Good. So before one starts claiming an opposing view speaks against Scripture, explain how one's own view of man in that it has God making us to be/change into something else and we are created flawed as is, jives with Scripture saying He called it Very Good that He made us in the beginning BEFORE mankind fell.

And if man's soul is not immortal, then how does a person's exsistence transcend death to make it even possible for God to hold a judgement of this life?

How is it possible for God to speak to people (Jews Luke 16) knowing perfectly well those men believed in both an eternal firery torment & immortal souls, but rather than correct that belief His Words support what they already held to be true about both men's souls and the coming Judgement?

Is this view of God also that He is a deceiver? Is that really how one views God and Scripture??

 

[Der Alte]

G-d created man KNOWING he would fall. Knowing he would fall, G-d knew man would be redeemed. Knowing he would need redeemed he G-d knew he would send Yeshua to be the means through which man would be redeemed. Yeshua was with the Father at the creation of it all, knowing from its earliest inception that he would come, walk uprightly before Adonai, be the eternal sacrifice, die and raise on the third day.

G-d did all of this because he wanted man of his full free will to chose to worship and walk uprightly before Adonai.

You keep asking the question and arguing against scripture. It is plain as the nose on your face that Scripture in MULTIPLE places states that G-d alone is immortal and that Yeshua GIVES eternal life to HIS sheep.

Show me 1 single solitary scripture that plainly states man is immortal. YOU CANT FIND ONE

The BETTER question is how could a G-d proclaim to be merciful and be the full expression of love create a being that he KNEW many would reject based on a system of FAITH (meaning there is no empirical evidence of G-d as Adonai can not be seen, measured etc) then create man with an immortal soul so that when those who failed to recognize or reject would face an eternal existence of torment? That is not love, that is sadistic

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[agua]

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [SIZE=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/SIZE]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[SIZE=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/SIZE] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[SIZE=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/SIZE] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8.

Yes and also we can see personification used when Sheol is said to have an emotional response to the arrival of the King of Babylon. It's hyperbole and poetic language similar to Rev.

Isa 14:9 YLT Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[SIZE=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/SIZE] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Again poetic language is used to hyperbole the fate of the wicked. Ezekiel isn't teaching anything about the afterlife here, aside from maybe the fate is sealed at death, and gives prophecy against Egypt and it's wickedness and its fate as previous evil doers. eg Babylon.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes and also we can see personification used when Sheol is said to have an emotional response to the arrival of the King of Babylon. It's hyperbole and poetic language similar to Rev.

Isa 14:9 YLT Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations.

Yes this is the standard SPAM-Fig copout. When scripture, as written, contradicts a false teaching blow it off as symbolic, parable, allegory, metaphor, or figurative, anything but literal. There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense." We cannot use our powers of observation to determine if Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 are SPAM-Fig, any attempt to do so is arbitrary. Since there is no empirical evidence to the contrary, the two passages are literal. The ancient Jews understood Isaiah 14:9 to be literal.

Gehenna

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

Again poetic language is used to hyperbole the fate of the wicked. Ezekiel isn't teaching anything about the afterlife here, aside from maybe the fate is sealed at death, and gives prophecy against Egypt and it's wickedness and its fate as previous evil doers. eg Babylon.

Again the SPAM-Fig copout. Ezekiel wasn't teaching anything. In both passages, Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31, God, Himself, is speaking.

 

[he-man]

Again the SPAM-Fig copout. Ezekiel wasn't teaching anything. In both passages, Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31, God, Himself, is speaking.

Your condescending remarks are not in keeping with the rules of this forum!

It is Ezekiel speaking for he says: the word of the LORD came unto me,...

Eze 32:18 Son of man, wail over the host of Egypt, and bring it down, her and the daughters of the majestic nations, to the earth's lowest parts, with those going down to the Pit.

Psalms 55:15 Let death: etc. Or, rather, "Death shall seize on them; they shall descend quickly into the grave;" which is a prediction of the sudden destruction which befell the ringleaders of this unnatural rebellion. [TSK]

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned to Sheol, all the nations forgetting God.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

[Der Alte]

Your condescending remarks are not in keeping with the rules of this forum!

Report me.

It is Ezekiel speaking for he says: the word of the LORD came unto me,...

Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, . . . saith the LORD.
Isa 14:23 ... saith the LORD of hosts.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying,
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed,

Eze 32:1 the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 32:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD
Eze 32:8 ...saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD;
Eze 32:14 ...saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:16 ...saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:17 ...the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 32:31 ...saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:32 ..., saith the Lord GOD.​

As I said, in the passages I quoted God, Himself, was speaking.

Eze 32:18 Son of man, wail over the host of Egypt, and bring it down, her and the daughters of the majestic nations, to the earth's lowest parts, with those going down to the Pit.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Psalms 55:15 Let death: etc. Or, rather, "Death shall seize on them; they shall descend quickly into the grave;" which is a prediction of the sudden destruction which befell the ringleaders of this unnatural rebellion. [TSK]

Rom 6:23, Rom 3:23, Heb 9:27.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned to Sheol, all the nations forgetting God.

Rom 6:23, Rom 3:23, Heb 9:27.

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Your point is?

 

[he-man]

Report me.Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, . . . saith the LORD. As I said, in the passages I quoted God, Himself, was speaking.

I think you have lost your hearing or do not know what an Idiom means!

Amos 8:11(11) "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord GOD, "That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD.

It is Ezekiel speaking for he says: the word of the LORD came unto me,...

Eze 11:14 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 24:20 Then I answered them, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Now the time had come to break that silence, and it was broken, after the prophet&#8217;s manner, by a parable.

Ezekiel was to take note of the day on which he received a message concerning the approaching ruin of Jerusalem, as it was to be on the anniversary of that day that the King of Babylon would besiege Jerusalem

Ezekiel was thus transported in his vision from his place in the inner court
[PULPIT]

1Ki 13:20 As they were sitting at the table, the word of the LORD came to the old prophet,
21 and he cried out to the prophet from Judah, "The LORD says that you disobeyed him and did not do what he commanded.

Gosh, could it have been a horn you heard speaking?

Dan 7:11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame.

Or do you think this was a Fire breathing DRAGON?
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
21 His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.

Psa 9:17 Death is the destiny of all the wicked, of all those who reject God.

 

[Der Alte]

I think you have lost your hearing or do not know what an Idiom means!

And you accused me of being condescending. The rules require posters to address the topic and refrain from making personal comments about other members.

Amos 8:11(11) "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord GOD, "That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD.

It is Ezekiel speaking for he says: the word of the LORD came unto me,...

Eze 11:14 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 24:20 Then I answered them, The word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Now the time had come to break that silence, and it was broken, after the prophet’s manner, by a parable.

While Ezekiel spoke the words they were the exact words of God, they were not things made up by Ezekiel and it was not the independent thoughts and opinions of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel was to take note of the day on which he received a message concerning the approaching ruin of Jerusalem, as it was to be on the anniversary of that day that the King of Babylon would besiege Jerusalem

Ezekiel was thus transported in his vision from his place in the inner court
[PULPIT]

I can't find anything, in chapter 31 or 32, about Ezekiel being transported anywhere.

1Ki 13:20 As they were sitting at the table, the word of the LORD came to the old prophet,
21 and he cried out to the prophet from Judah, "The LORD says that you disobeyed him and did not do what he commanded.

And your point is?

Gosh, could it have been a horn you heard speaking?

Dan 7:11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame.

Very simple Daniel was describing something he saw in a dream. It may or may not be figurative. There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation. "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." The converse is "If the plain sense does not make good sense it is good sense to look for another sense." In my lifetime I have seen many "horns' speaking. They are called loud speakers or public address systems.

Or do you think this was a Fire breathing DRAGON?
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
21 His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.

God is describing something. I don't know if it is literal or symbolic.

Psa 9:17 Death is the destiny of all the wicked, of all those who reject God.

What about those who are not wicked and do not reject God? Will they live forever without dying? &#1513;&#1473;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol can mean the grave but it also refers to something where parental discipline will deliver someone from.

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [&#1513;&#1473;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol]​

 

[he-man]

And you accused me of being condescending. The rules require posters to address the topic and refrain from making personal comments about other members.
Originally Posted by Der Alter Again the SPAM-Fig copout. Yes this is the standard SPAM-Fig copout. When scripture, as written, contradicts a false teaching blow it off as symbolic, parable, allegory, metaphor, or figurative, anything but literal.

Then obey the rules!

While Ezekiel spoke the words they were the exact words of God,
Very simple Daniel was describing something he saw in a dream. It may or may not be figurative.

I thought you said, "When scripture, as written, contradicts a false teaching blow it off as symbolic, parable, allegory, metaphor, or figurative..".

There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation.

You mean an excuse for not addressing what is quoted from the Bible?

" In my lifetime I have seen many "horns' speaking. They are called loud speakers or public address systems.
God is describing something. I don't know if it is literal or shybolic.

I thought you were learned in Hebrew? or do you just blow it off as contradictive? I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame.

What about those who are not wicked and do not reject God? but it also refers to something where parental discipline will deliver someone from.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [&#1513;&#1473;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol]

Yes it can mean the parental discipline of God as in 2Th 1:9 who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His power,"

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock and hide in the dust from fear of Jehovah, and from the glory of His power.

Nah 1:6 Who can stand before His fury? And who can rise against the heat of His anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken down because of Him

Dan 7:11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame.

Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
21 His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.

Ps 18:8 A smoke went up out of His nostrils, and fire devoured out of His mouth; coals were kindled from it.

13 Jehovah also thundered in the heavens; and the Highest gave forth His voice, hailstones and coals of fire.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

[Der Alte]

Then obey the rules!

I do. The post you accused me of being condenscending I pointed out an error in another members post.

I thought you said, "When scripture, as written, contradicts a false teaching blow it off as symbolic, parable, allegory, metaphor, or figurative..".

What is your point?

You mean an excuse for not addressing what is quoted from the Bible?

It was not about addressing what is quoted from the Bible, it was about you claiming something was figurative.

I thought you were learned in Hebrew? or do you just blow it off as contradictive? I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame. Yes it can mean the parental discipline of God as in 2Th 1:9 who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His power,"

What is your point? A fictional beast with teeth of iron and ten horns seen in a dream is not literal in any way, shape or form. "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." Re: 2 Ths 1:9,... everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His power," If something is destroyed, nonexistant it cannot be "from the face of God" or anything else.

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock and hide in the dust from fear of Jehovah, and from the glory of His power.

Nah 1:6 Who can stand before His fury? And who can rise against the heat of His anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken down because of Him

Irrelevant scripture.

Dan 7:11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I was looking until the beast was killed, and his body was destroyed <H6, (Chaldee); corresponding to H6: - destroy, perish.> and given to the burning flame.

Already addressed this.

Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches; sparks of fire fly out.
20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils like a boiling pot fired by reeds.
21 His breath kindles coals and the flame goes out from his mouth.

Ps 18:8 A smoke went up out of His nostrils, and fire devoured out of His mouth; coals were kindled from it.

13 Jehovah also thundered in the heavens; and the Highest gave forth His voice, hailstones and coals of fire.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

When you quote scripture it would be helpful if you would state the purpose of those scripture. What do you intend to show with those scriptures?

 

[he-man]

It was not about addressing what is quoted from the Bible, it was about you claiming something was figurative.
What is your point? A fictional beast with teeth of iron and ten horns seen in a dream is not literal in any way, shape or form.

Fictional? How about figurative? Who is this beast?
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2342 &#952;&#951;&#961;&#945; [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]brutal person; (figuratively) destruction[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

2Ths 1:9,... everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His power," If something is destroyed, nonexistant it cannot be "from the face of God" or anything else.

Exactly! Annihilated: destroy something: to destroy something completely, especially so that it ceases to exist,
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/annihilate
Bing Dictionary

That means vaporized as smoke and Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

It would be helpful if you would comment on the scripture given instead of evading it by asking "What is the Point"

Can you explain this away without saying "what is the point"? The point is with what kind of intelligence do you respond to the exegesis or critical explanation or interpretation of a text such as:

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.