Hell

[he-man]

And please save me the "but they come back" from non-existence argument. I get it, but that does not work for me. And I still fail to see how one can view those people who have gone before us as "happy", at least until they "come back" from non-existence.

deleted

 

[THIS]

The scriptures say the fire last forever; if the fire last forever, why not the suffering?

 

[THIS]

If their worm is not dying, then how are they dying?

 

[he-man]

The scriptures say the fire last forever; if the fire last forever, why not the suffering?

The "Little Book" is hard to digest when you have sweet preconceived notions!
Revelation 10:9 So I went to the angel and said to him, "Give me the little book." And he said to me, "Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth." (10) Then I took the little book out of the angel"s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter.

2Th 1:9 Who shall suffer punishment even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might; Page 252; NOTES from: The Peoples New Testament 1889 Vol II, B W Johnson

Eternal destruction. This is the penalty to be paid by those who reject the Gospel and will not know God—a destruction which is to be rendered permanent by the severance of those who suffer it from the source of all good desire and endeavour. ‘A testimony, this, to the eternity of future punishment that is not easy to be explained away’ (Ellicott). Popular Translation Bible

2Th_1:9
Who; namely, the unbelieving Gentiles and Jews. Shall be punished; literally, shall pay the penalty; shall suffer punishment (R.V.). With everlasting destruction; or rather, even everlasting destruction; the words being in apposition. "Destruction’’ here denotes ruin, death; the word is only used in Paul’s Epistles (1Co_5:8; 1Th_5:3; 1Ti_6:9). The Greek word translated "everlasting," from dogmatic reasons, has given rise to much controversy. Here it appears to denote eternal—eternity to come. The eternal punishment of the wicked seems here asserted; a terrible declaration, which the mind shudders to contemplate.

The observation of Olshausen is worthy of attention: "This is the only passage in Paul’s Epistles in which everlasting damnation is openly declared, whereas not a few occur in which a bringing back of all the lost ones is apparently assumed as possible;" but he adds, "For the supposition that Paul did indeed in the earliest of his Epistles still teach everlasting damnation, but gave it up in later times, there exists no sufficient foundation, because the bringing back again is nowhere freely and openly declared."£ The Pulpit Translation Notes

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the adversary and his messengers

 

[CherubRam]

If their worm is not dying, then how are they dying?

The word "fire" is being used as a parable to mean "judgment." It means that the judgment is final. The "worm" that never dies is also a parable to mean "eternal destruction."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If their worm is not dying, then how are they dying?

exactly and regardless of what one sees the "worm" representing - it is identified personally connected to an individual. So if one claims that individual has ceased to exist -what is the purpose/point of describing/having something personally connected to an individual as a thing which has no end?

 

[Timothew]

DrBubbaLove,
I was just reading in Romans and came across this verse, and it made me think of you. The way you say that if a person is destroyed and is no more, they can't be brought back to life. I want you to really consider what Paul had to say about this:
"(GOD) gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."
This is in Romans 4:17
If God can give life to the dead, and we agree that He can, and if Paul says that God can call into existence the things that do not exist, then what is stopping God from calling back into existence a person who died and ceased to exist?

"as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist." Romans 4:17 ESV

 

[Timothew]

If their worm is not dying, then how are they dying?

"Their worm" is not "them" or "their soul". "Their worm" is the little worm that is eating their corpse.

Read Isaiah 66:24 again:
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

 

[Evergreen48]

If their worm is not dying, then how are they dying?

Worms are always in abundant supply just waiting for the next corpse to receive them. The earth is full of them. As long as the earth exists, there will be worms.

 

[Der Alte]

Worms are always in abundant supply just waiting for the next corpse to receive them. The earth is full of them. As long as the earth exists, there will be worms.

Unfortunately that is not what the scripture says. "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

 

[Der Alte]

The word "fire" is being used as a parable to mean "judgment." It means that the judgment is final. The "worm" that never dies is also a parable to mean "eternal destruction."

The old "It's a parable copout." When scripture as written contradicts a particular teaching, don't correct the teaching, change the scripture, make it a parable.

 

[he-man]

"Their worm" is not "them" or "their soul". "Their worm" is the little worm that is eating their corpse.

Read Isaiah 66:24 again:
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Mark Vv.44, 46, solemn repetitions of former declarations 48 are only in Mark ; they are cited from Isaiah (see reff.), where the prophecy is of the carcases of those who have transgressed against the Lord. This triple repetition gives sublimity, and leaves no doubt of the discourse having been verbatim thus uttered. See note . Matt. v.22;
Pages 379-380.
The GEEEK TESTAMENT, HENRY ALFORD, D.D. LATE DEAN OF CANTERBURY

THE GREEK TESTAMENT. VOL. I.THE FOUR GOSPELS.

Mt 5:22 Gehenna “should be carefully distinguished from Hades which is never used for the place of punishment, but for the place of departed spirits, without reference to their moral condition” (Vincent)[RWP]​

Jer (expr:h. l. says it is not in most of the ancient mss, and pronounces it spurious) and after these is set the end of the malefactor, whose corpse, thrown out into the valley of Hinnoin, was devoured by the worm or the flame. Similarly, in the spiritual kingdom of Christ, shall the sins even of thought and word be brought into judgment and punished, each according
to its degree of guilt, but even the least of them before no less a tribunal than the iudgment-seat of Christ.' The most important thing to keep in mind is, that there is no distinction of kind between these punishments, only of degree. In the thing compared, the inflicted death by the sword, the awe^piov death by stoning, and the disgrace followed as an intensification of the horrors of death ; but the punishment is one and the same — death. The GEEEK TESTAMENT, HENRY ALFORD, D.D.LATE DEAN OF CANTERBURY Page 46

THE GREEK TESTAMENT. VOL. I. THE FOUR GOSPELS.​

 

[BukiRob]

The old "It's a parable copout." When scripture as written contradicts a particular teaching, don't correct the teaching, change the scripture, make it a parable.

How about answering this question. In order for the Pagan eternal life existence how to do reconcile that G-d has decreed the wages of sin are death. That the gift of Eternal life is for the believer alone. Man is mortal no part of him is eternal as a by product of his creation.

The unrepresented sole will die a second time of course you somehow have to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to make death=eternal life.

In such a non scriptural point of view, you have ALL mankind being created as immortal eternal beings, the only thing you seemingly want to quibble on is WHERE one spends eternal life..... sadly there is 0 scripture that supports any such thesis that man is an immortal eternal being

 

[Der Alte]

How about answering this question. In order for the Pagan eternal life existence how to do reconcile that G-d has decreed the wages of sin are death. That the gift of Eternal life is for the believer alone. Man is mortal no part of him is eternal as a by product of his creation.

Those who can only quote "the wages of sin is death," don't quote the other relevant scriptures.

All, 100% of mankind, have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

It is appointed to man, 100% of mankind, once to die, after that the judgment.

The annihilationists' proof text does not say "the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then another death."

There are 3 Greek words translated "life", Zoe, Bios, and psuche. Only "Zoe" is associated with "eternal life."

The unrepresented sole will die a second time of course you somehow have to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to make death=eternal life.

I think you meant "unrepentant soul" rather than "sole." Please show the verse which states that anyone dies a second time?

While the lake of fire [LOF] is referred to as "the second death" there is no verse which says anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

The way this is stated the terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are interchangeable. The lake of fire is the second death thus the second death is the lake of fire. This does not say anything about anyone dying.

The LOF is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living beings, one, the false prophet, is a person, are cast into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

There is not one single verse in the Bible which says anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

In such a non scriptural point of view, you have ALL mankind being created as immortal eternal beings, the only thing you seemingly want to quibble on is WHERE one spends eternal life..... sadly there is 0 scripture that supports any such thesis that man is an immortal eternal being

I have just refuted all your proof texts. And here is more scriptural evidence. In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[BukiRob]

Those who can only quote "the wages of sin is death," don't quote the other relevant scriptures.

All, 100% of mankind, have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

It is appointed to man, 100% of mankind, once to die, after that the judgment.

The annihilationists' proof text does not say "the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then another death."

There are 3 Greek words translated "life", Zoe, Bios, and psuche. Only "Zoe" is associated with "eternal life."



I think you meant "unrepentant soul" rather than "sole." Please show the verse which states that anyone dies a second time?

While the lake of fire [LOF] is referred to as "the second death" there is no verse which says anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

The way this is stated the terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are interchangeable. The lake of fire is the second death thus the second death is the lake of fire. This does not say anything about anyone dying.

The LOF is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living beings, one, the false prophet, is a person, are cast into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

There is not one single verse in the Bible which says anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.



I have just refuted all your proof texts. And here is more scriptural evidence. In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

.... and he misses the meat of what I am saying.

So I make sure you read it.


UNREDEEMED MAN IS NOT IMMORTAL.



AS SUCH, HE CAN NOT LIVE ETERNALLY. YOUR ARGUMENT IS NOT WITHER MAN IS IMMORTAL YOUR ARGUMENT IS STRICTLY WHERE HE WILL SPEND ETERNITY AND THAT SIR, IS NOT SCRIPTURAL

No matter how you try to cover it by twisting scripture and taking things out of context at the end of the day THAT is your argument. That man is immortal and he either spends eternity with the Father or in the LOF in eternal torment.(which is not scriptural either)

Your FLAW which you have avoided like the plague because you have NO ANSWER is MAN IS NOT IMMORTAL.

Believers put on immortality as it is the gift of G-d. Sinners DO NOT. PERIOD. As such the do NOT live eternally no matter how hard you try to deflect and twist things there is 0 scriptural evidence that man as he is created is immortal

 

[Der Alte]

.... and he misses the meat of what I am saying.

So I make sure you read it.

Unredeemed man is not immortal.

Posting something in a huge font, bolded and colored red does not make it true. You accuse me of twisting scripture and you don't even post any, just your opinion.

As such, he can not live eternally. Your argument is not wither man is immortal your argument is strictly where he will spend eternity and that sir, is not scriptural

NO, ZERO, NONE scripture.

No matter how you try to cover it by twisting scripture and taking things out of context at the end of the day that is your argument. That man is immortal and he either spends eternity with the Father or in the LOF in eternal torment.(which is not scriptural either)

Once again NO, ZERO, NONE scripture just your opinion. Repeating your opinion without scripture doesn't make it true.

Your flaw which you have avoided like the plague because you have no answer is man is not immortal..

NO, ZERO, NONE scripture! Accusing me of having a flaw does not make it so.

Believers put on immortality as it is the gift of G-d. Sinners do not period. As such the do not live eternally no matter how hard you try to deflect and twist things there is 0 scriptural evidence that man as he is created is immortal.

You are correct there is NO, NONE, ZERO scripture to support your arguments.

 

[CherubRam]

The old "It's a parable copout." When scripture as written contradicts a particular teaching, don't correct the teaching, change the scripture, make it a parable.

You should take your complaint to God.

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

Numbers 12:8
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Psalm 49:4
I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:

Proverbs 1:6
for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Daniel 5:12
He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”

Ezekiel 20:49
Then I said, “Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?’”

Hosea 12:10
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.”

Matthew 13:3
Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

DrBubbaLove,
I was just reading in Romans and came across this verse, and it made me think of you. The way you say that if a person is destroyed and is no more, they can't be brought back to life. I want you to really consider what Paul had to say about this:
"(GOD) gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."
This is in Romans 4:17
If God can give life to the dead, and we agree that He can, and if Paul says that God can call into existence the things that do not exist, then what is stopping God from calling back into existence a person who died and ceased to exist?

"as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist." Romans 4:17 ESV

Saint Paul is speaking specifically about God being able to bring a human, specifically Jesus in this case, back from the dead. While it is true most of us believe God can create ex nihilo, most of us also hold that neither Jesus or any person are "things". To attempt to relate the two - a person and things - in a verse speaking of God's abilities puts more into the Saints words than what is there.

But the view of this verse which holds that things and people are equivalent does once again highlight what I said before about the reality of such views of human life and the coldness of it. If we are just "things" and all that constitutes a "person" is a pile of flesh animated by bio-electric energy at the molecular level, then replicating a "person" is simply a matter of copying all that, which yes I agree certainly God could do. As I said before He could make as many copies of me as He wants. Many scientist have similar view of "life" and dream of also being able to replicate "people" and "things" (not that all of them make a distinction between people and things).

It is the existence of our immortal souls in the orthodox view of an "afterlife" which allows our concept of a "person" to transcend death. Which also means the only "thing" God is creating from nothing when ALL the dead are resurrected are new bodies for those departed "souls". It also means there is no doubt the "person" getting the new body for Judgement (of both body and soul) is the same person who lived the life about to be judged.

Contrast those orthodox thoughts with the idea of God recreating from nothing BOTH a body and soul for Judgement.

Remove the people element. Consider two worlds, one good the other considered bad. Both destroyed - no longer existing as a worlds. What would be the logic of having God then remakes both worlds FROM NOTHING to declare one good and one bad, just to then allow the bad to be destroyed again?
And explain how we can say the newly created worlds are the "same" worlds that existed before rather than just identical "twins" of the former worlds?
And what if He had promised that the good world would never be "destroyed"?

BTW I use to think you had one out, that God could essentially teleport everyone (from death) forward to arrive at the same moment of Judgement (even transforming/making whole (hopefully younger) our bodies in the process). Having thought more about that possibility, and certainly God is able, I realize this is not an out for you because in such a view of what happens at death, at no time could one say a person ceases to be.

Clearly your view says we all cease to exist as a "person" at death and once "brought back" from that state of non-existence, some of us are made to non-existent again, while others go on to never "not exist" again. How in that view those who never "not exist again" can be said to have never "not existed" remains a mystery. It would have be more favorable for this view had God promised those hearing Him been recorded as Him saying they would all be destroyed but not stay that way forever.

 

[BukiRob]

Posting something in a huge font, bolded and colored red does not make it true. You accuse me of twisting scripture and you don't even post any, just your opinion.



NO, ZERO, NONE scripture.



Once again NO, ZERO, NONE scripture just your opinion. Repeating your opinion without scripture doesn't make it true.



NO, ZERO, NONE scripture! Accusing me of having a flaw does not make it so.



You are correct there is NO, NONE, ZERO scripture to support your arguments.

Straw-man argument. You have FAILED to show a single scripture that in any way shows man is created immortal. Your response is to show a scripture that proves he isn't???? LOL... seriously that's where you want to go?


Debating with you is like talking to a 3 year old. You cite scripture that has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand.

You have failed to produce a single scripture that shows at all that man is born immortal.

You keep trying to argue eternal torment yet like the plague avoid who is granted immortality and who is not. The sinner is NOT granted eternal life. PERIOD.

Unless you can show CLEAR scriptural support that the sinner is granted eternal life then you need to be quiet

 

[BukiRob]

Saint Paul is speaking specifically about God being able to bring a human, specifically Jesus in this case, back from the dead. While it is true most of us believe God can create ex nihilo, most of us also hold that neither Jesus or any person are "things". To attempt to relate the two - a person and things - in a verse speaking of God's abilities puts more into the Saints words than what is there.

Actually Yeshua raised himself.

John 10:17-18 17 “This is why the Father loves me: because I lay down my life — in order to take it up again! 18 No one takes it away from me; on the contrary, I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This is what my Father commanded me to do.”

It is the existence of our immortal souls in the orthodox view of an "afterlife" which allows our concept of a "person" to transcend death. Which also means the only "thing" God is creating from nothing when ALL the dead are resurrected are new bodies for those departed "souls". It also means there is no doubt the "person" getting the new body for Judgement (of both body and soul) is the same person who lived the life about to be judged.

Please provide clear, unmistakable evidence that souls are immortal. I think you will find that is not what is in scripture