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sevengreenbeans

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Hell is in the center of the Earth. The New Testament says Jesus descended into Hell. It also says he ascended to Heaven. So down is Hell, and up is Heaven. That's my take on it.

Hell is the grave. The soul, the essence of a person, is not bound by the grave. Resurrection brings forth life from the grave. The Shekinah of YHWH came to earth to dwell with man, not the other way around. When reading the Torah by itself, I have yet to find evidence of hell meaning anything other than the grave. A Paradise, Gan Eden, or Gathering of Souls waiting for the appointed time - I believe in the existence of such a place. I am reluctant to use the "heaven" or "hell" terminology, however.


 
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pat34lee

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I would also be inclined to believe your "theories " are true .. ( and they might yet turn out to be ) but thus far .. you have not begun to convince me ..and you should be cautious of convincing me - because i do not fear non existence - how could i - i would not exist .

Even if it came to non-existence, death would not be the end. There would still come the judgment, where we will stand before YHWH and try to explain why we rejected him. We will see him and his unconditional love for us, and know that we caused him pain. That, I think would be worse than any punishment.
 
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Alithis

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"Dying you shall not die" said the Serpent, and most of the world believed him.
Death is death - but even apart from that game, Guardian makes the simple point: Does God torture anyone forever? No.
Is his "justice" this cruel - and irrational ? Nay.

And consider: Why should we have to turn the other cheek, if God doesn't? Are we better than him?

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Matt. 18:21-22

I do not disagree with you in general. and God has already turned the other cheek ..mercy rejoices over justice but justice will in the end be also satisfied .and in the realm of undefinable eternity - what is time? is it long or a moment ? all are things we cannot yet comprehend .

and in honesty you cannot say you "know" ,but you theorize - yes?
and i accept the argument happily and consider it gladly .as I do the reverse .. because i too cannot say "I Know" that death is not non-existence or that death is Non-existence .

but i do know ..based on the Yeshua's word that eternal life is "that they might know G-d " and the opposite to knowing G-d ..is not ceasing to exist .. but to be eternally cut off from knowing him .

but I told all from the start- : that we would stump ourselves on the perception of "what is death" is it non existence or eternal separation from God .
and here we are lol ... and i have enjoyed the discourse and gleaned many good points .but let us not contend endlessly, for no spiritual edification nor good will come of that .

Messiah Yeshua is lord and the only way to salvation ,the word of G-d Made flesh - i believe we mostly all rejoice in that together
-i will cease posting on this topic for the greater good of peace :D( and because I really like you lot and don't wish to be an annoying pratt in your forum)

G-d bless you all


(sorry Pat didn't see your post at first. i believe we we speaking of the second death- at least i was )
 
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GuardianShua

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and yet the Lord Jesus said " and this is life .. that they may know you the one true God ..-"

so we see that existence is not life and non existence is not necessarily death

but to be cut off from God is the second death. for if one has been made non existent then there is nothing to judge nor punish nor save nor anything.
non existence is nothing to be feared nor saved from

but if eternal life is to know God - then the second death is to be cut of eternally from God .. I see nothing in any scripture you share that suggests that means non existence ..
it is written that we all were in G-d before the creation of the world ... shall that which existed now not exist? that would be to suggest that G-d does not exist .

slapping your forehead because you do not wish to consider it from the differing aspect of life being united with G-d and death being cut of from him ,does not make your words right nor mine wrong ..

i have been very polite in all this .stating clearly that it is "what i believe" and that i do not raise it up as a doctrine .just a consideration.
I have gladly considered what you have had to say .. and this one issue does not make sense ....
if all that is to happen in the end of all things ,when one does not obey G-d, is to be made non-existent - then i find no point in fearing it . as the non-existent will not know they are non-existent ..nothing lost, nothing gained -nothing exists to gain or lose to that which does not exist.

but if death is to be cut of from G-d -who is life ,and know it . then there is everything to be lost and everything to be gained

For what reason should a person think that death AFTER THE JUDGEMENT is not final? Scripture tells us that it is. What scripture or facts do you have to make you think otherwise?
 
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visionary

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For what reason should a person think that death AFTER THE JUDGEMENT is not final? Scripture tells us that it is. What scripture or facts do you have to make you think otherwise?
Yep.. even death is thrown into the lake of fire .. never to rise again in the land of the living..:p
 
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GuardianShua

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Hell is in the center of the Earth. The New Testament says Jesus descended into Hell. It also says he ascended to Heaven. So down is Hell, and up is Heaven. That's my take on it.

Christ did not go to Hell, he went to the grave. The words Hell and Hades are not correct translations.
 
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mishkan

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it said He went to the spirits in prison or something...

anyway sorry if I have been annoying, I am trying to learn but somehow I am not succeeding on this one as well :S

Don't feel bad. You're asking about a topic that,

1. nobody has ever experienced to bring back actual data, and

2. has no generally accepted Jewish response that could be shared here.

Asking about the nature of existence in the afterlife is guaranteed to generate lots of opinions, but no real credible information.

You're fine. Just ask another question. :D
 
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ronshua

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Greetings GuardianShua & all the Saints here . Good thread , great comments most suitable for teaching . I have a thought or a few nothing condescending , just a jogging or provoking for questions to yourself . If you're not grounded in Hebrew Scripture you may come away from the table half-empty . If you refuse GuardianShua's basic Christian Theology , you maybe , time ahead somewhere else . So , without further ado !

Jeremiah 1:4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
6 “Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak; I am too young.”

7 But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,” declares the Lord.

What is Jeremiah being told in these few verses ? Elohim knows each and ever-one of His sheep from before time as we understand it , began . He witnessed each birth , life and death , the long since dead , us who are living now and all whose not yet born . Before a word of Creation was spoken .

1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[a] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.( stake )

Remember the words of our " atoning sacrifice " ? "... He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” " for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. " ( grave )

The great white throne judgment is an ongoing event since the day of Pentecost . Each in there own time , " every eye shall see " one at a time . Every person Elohim ABBA YAH put in Adam's body will be a witness to every judgement . If long dead , living now or not yet born , ALL ! The First Resurrection was led by YAHshua , The first born from the dead . The innocent , the one's no having heard the Good News that was preached to the Saints in the beginning , will hear the Gospel in the grave . So the first judgement / Resurrection is ongoing .
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

The devil / satan AKA the sinful human nature , period . Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” 20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” ( Not a 12" influence standing on your shoulder whispering rebellion in your ear .) Is Elohim's word true or not ?
Ephesians 2: As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

BY NATURE ! ( Scholars reason the oral Torah was between 40 and 60% of Hebrew Scripture .) The stuff that's vague to us was expounded by the oral Torah to the Hebrews .

Just whom is the " ruler " or 'GOD' of this world ? Genesis 1:26,27,28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

" Rule over.... every living creature that moves on the ground.” Snakes ?


Hell has been covered ! Ha Ha <== attempted Levity ! It's a translation thing . In the original languages of Scripture there's no punctuation . So the repentant guy hanging with our Master got to go to Paradise that day or he was told he would go . At the whim of a translator's decision on which side of " today " to place the comma on .

The judgment to total destruction has been proficiently covered . That's how my Elohim handles the DISOBEDIENT .

Where did the sinful human nature AKA snake come from ? In SIX days & before the sighting of two stars , ALL was made that was made . Where's satan ? He's there alright , read the verse . "... she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; " There's your satan ! Proof !
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eve was DECEIVED by someone present at the fruit hist .

("to deceive," is rendered "beguiled" in the RV of 1 Tim. 2:14. See No. 2.)

Was there a " Resurrection at 70AD ? There was enough confusion to cover people gone missing in that time frame . But why , because John Darby or Hal Lindsey said so ? Where's the historical documentation . Hebrews 9: But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

PLAIN ENGLISH !

New International Version

Peace . the servant ron .
 
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Hoshiyya

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I can't believe how bad I am with the Bible sometimes. I've read the NT a few times but I'm bad with the OT because I have read hardly any of it, and I am trying to read it but the energy needed to do it is a lot harder. I am trying. I am thus ignorant of plenty in the OT that might have to do with what I am talking about.

how do we know it's not eternal punishment? :|

I hope people don't get annoyed with me here...I have too many questions and I should know the answer...I'm the type of person to forget what they read in the Bible easily...

Perhaps I was being unclear - forgive me.
I am certainly not annoyed though!

Awlam, or &#1506;&#1493;&#1500;&#1501;, is the word usually translated "eternal" or "forever" in the Hebrew text of the Bible, and in the vast majority of instances the context, very demonstrably, does not refer to eternity, with my example of Jonah 2:6 being probably the most illustrative.
It is the equivalent of the Greek &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;, Aion, as we see for example in the Septuaginta (the Greek translation of the OT by the Jews, from as early as the 3rd century BC.)
This word too does not mean eternal - not in any of the Greek classical texts it appears in, nor in the Bible (Greek OT and NT) - though it has been translated "eternal", most critically in regards to hell, and I contend wrongfully so.

It seems to me traditionalist translators choose to translate it as eternal even in cases where they themselves agree it cannot mean eternal (has the Aaronid priesthood lasted? Or has Jonah's 3 days in the whale never ended?) simply to be "consistent," due to their interest in retaining their eternal hell doctrine.
 
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Hoshiyya

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...in honesty you cannot say you "know" ,but you theorize - yes?
and i accept the argument happily and consider it gladly .as I do the reverse .. because i too cannot say "I Know" that death is not non-existence or that death is Non-existence .

but i do know ..based on the Yeshua's word that eternal life is "that they might know G-d " and the opposite to knowing G-d ..is not ceasing to exist .. but to be eternally cut off from knowing him .

Forgive me for saying so, but are you not contradicting yourself?
You either (claim to) know, or you don't.

Furthermore, Yeshua's words, if properly translated, cannot be used to conclusively substantiate eternal hell (unless Jonah is still in the whale).

Note that God could easily have said "their punishment will never end" or some phrasing like that - but he never did. To describe the punishments of hell, he consistently uses a word which may describe a time period as short as 3 days.
 
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Alithis

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Forgive me for saying so, but are you not contradicting yourself?
You either (claim to) know, or you don't.

Furthermore, Yeshua's words, if properly translated, cannot be used to conclusively substantiate eternal hell (unless Jonah is still in the whale).

Note that God could easily have said "their punishment will never end" or some phrasing like that - but he never did. To describe the punishments of hell, he consistently uses a word which may describe a time period as short as 3 days.

how is it a contradiction to admit that i also cannot say "I know" (in relation to death being non existance /or eternal sepration from God ) :confused:
i was just being honest and confused as to why others were not being honest
i then went on to say i know what eternal life is -but based on the Words of Yeshua not theory.

i guess i worded it badly when i meant to say or should have said .. based on the above that "i then "surmise" that death is the opposite."

would that correct the apparent contradiction ? :) ( not posting on the actual topic any more just clarifying a past post )
 
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GuardianShua

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how is it a contradiction to admit that i also cannot say "I know" (in relation to death being non existance /or eternal sepration from God ) :confused:
i was just being honest and confused as to why others were not being honest
i then went on to say i know what eternal life is -but based on the Words of Yeshua not theory.

i guess i worded it badly when i meant to say or should have said .. based on the above that "i then "surmise" that death is the opposite."

would that correct the apparent contradiction ? :) ( not posting on the actual topic any more just clarifying a past post )

Here is the problem Michael, you are making up your own rules for reality, which just so happens to conflict with what is true. The opposite of life is death, and the opposite of existence is nonexistence. A soul must have a body, even if it is not of the same substance, otherwise it is a spirit. Both our bodies (even a spiritual body) and spirit are mortal. Only Yahwah can grant immortality.
 
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Alithis

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Here is the problem Michael, you are making up your own rules for reality, which just so happens to conflict with what is true. The opposite of life is death, and the opposite of existence is nonexistence. A soul must have a body, even if it is not of the same substance, otherwise it is a spirit. Both our bodies (even a spiritual body) and spirit are mortal. Only Yahwah can grant immortality.

hmm no i dont think i am making up my own rules

Yeshua said .. and this is eternal life that they might know God -

for me to know God is to be in relationship with him by the Spirit of God - to walk and talk with him in rest from all toils and dis-ease eternally .

i don't think it is making a new rule to consider the conclusion tha, if to know God is is eternal life - then to be separated from him is death .

and this verse from revelation certainly does not depict death being a state of non existence
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
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GuardianShua

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hmm no i dont think i am making up my own rules

Yeshua said .. and this is eternal life that they might know God -

for me to know God is to be in relationship with him by the Spirit of God - to walk and talk with him in rest from all toils and dis-ease eternally .

i don't think it is making a new rule to consider the conclusion tha, if to know God is is eternal life - then to be separated from him is death .

and this verse from revelation certainly does not depict death being a state of non existence

Quote: "and this verse from revelation certainly does not depict death being a state of non existence"

KJV

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

The words "torment throughout eternity" is not relevant, because in the second death, hades and death are done away with. Most likely the word "grave" was replaced with the word "Hades."

In English usage the word "Hades" first appears around 1600, as a term used to explain the article in the Apostles' Creed, "He descended into hell", where the place of waiting (the place of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19 KJV) into which Jesus is there affirmed to have gone after the Crucifixion needed to be distinguished from what had come to be more usually called "hell", i.e. the place or state of those finally damned.

After some thought about it, it's not that people won't be tormented in their spirit, but certainly God does not torture living beings in Hell.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Since Hell or Hades are done away with, there can be no eternal punishment, other than the condemned are cut off from the living for all eternity. Do you see what I am saying? In other words there is no one alive in a place called Hades. Scriptures say that God takes their life away from them. And like I have said before, the word "fire" is often used in a parabolic way to mean judgement.
I found one place where "coal" meant judgement, and some other places where "lightning," a type of fire, meant judgement. If there were a place called Hades with living being in it, then God lied, and the serpent told the truth.


I'm making a point, and I am not calling God a liar.

Because people die, unless saved by God, that means that life in Hades is a lie of the serpent. The serpent doctrine is that there is life in Hades, and people are being tortured for all eternity. That is a lie. Scriptures are written in such a way that they are self-correcting. The Catholics were from the Gnostic mystery schools, they believed in Hell.


Daniel 8:12
Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
Scripture is God's truth.


Catholic Gnosticism.
The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Not only were the Congregations divided by Gnosticism, but enticed by philosophy and paganism also, and there were geographic divisions as well.
Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.


Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

If it is true that there will be people ALIVE in Hell, Then God lied, and the Serpent told the truth. The word "Hell" was added to scripture replacing the words grave, pit, and Gehenna. God is not a liar.

Genesis 2:17
...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


Genesis 3:3
...but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "


Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.


Now who is telling the truth, God or the Serpent? According to scripture the Serpent is telling the truth. And that is why you see the word "Hell" in scripture. It's a place for God to torture LIVING BEINGS for all eternity.

That is why our bibles also say God does "EVIL." Did you know that King James was the Grand Master of the Masons, and that the King James Bible is also known as the Masonic Bible? And that is the tip of the iceberg. God is not evil, nor does he do evil.




This subject is about the condemned, not those who will receive life immortal.

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

Is the word "HELL" biblical, or not? If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?


Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [hell / Gehenna.


Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?


As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.
 
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visionary

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how is it a contradiction to admit that i also cannot say "I know" (in relation to death being non existance /or eternal sepration from God ) :confused:
i was just being honest and confused as to why others were not being honest
i then went on to say i know what eternal life is -but based on the Words of Yeshua not theory.

i guess i worded it badly when i meant to say or should have said .. based on the above that "i then "surmise" that death is the opposite."

would that correct the apparent contradiction ? :) ( not posting on the actual topic any more just clarifying a past post )
I agree.. death is the opposite of life... eternal death is the opposite of eternal life...

Life is in the land of the living
Death does not have life in it.

Eternal is the length of time this state will be.
 
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