hell

[joshhuntnm]

I ran across this piece of hell. has me thinking. What do you think.

The most important arguments supporting annihiliationism are as follows. The
judgments in the OT involve destruction and perishing. Nothing is said about torment
that is permanent and conscious. The image of fire that is often used for the judgment
signifies destruction, not that sinners will be punished forever. Many believers derive
their concept that hell is everlasting punishment from the immortality of the soul, but
says Fudge, that notion stems from Greek philosophy and is unbiblical. The word
"destroy" (ap
leia, apollymi) is often used in the scriptures for the future judgment, but
this word indicates, says Fudge, that unbelievers will be destroyed in the sense that they
will no longer exist. But how does annihilationism explain texts like Matt 25:46 which speak of eternal punishment? The author argues that the punishment will last forever in
the sense that those who are blotted out of existence will be gone forever. Fudge is
unsure that Rev 14:9-11 even refers to future punishment, and argues that in any case the
imagery in the verses should be interpreted in light of the OT to refer to destruction, not
conscious torment. Similarly, he maintains that the verses about the punishment of the
devil, the false prophet, and the beast (Rev 19:20; 20:7-10) cannot be used to support the
traditional view, for the false prophet and beast may represent institutions rather than
individuals, and we should interpret the lake of fire as involving annihilation. http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/review_PetersonFudge.pdf

 

[AndOne]

Jesus had something to say about this. See Mark 9:43-48. Pay close attention to vs 48.

 

[joshhuntnm]

Jesus had something to say about this. See Mark 9:43-48. Pay close attention to vs 48.

exactly the fire is not quenched. but what you throw into the fire is burned up.

 

[Super Kal]

very true Behe's Boy, the fire is not quenched... however, the verse does not say that the soul is naturally immortal... and that's the very heart of the difference between these two doctrines:

is the soul inherently immortal, or is it a gift from Jesus Christ?

 

[AndOne]

exactly the fire is not quenched. but what you throw into the fire is burned up.

...got it - you disagree with Jesus on this issue. Nice. Just ignored the statement about a worm not dying like it isn't there....

Nothing in the verse about anything being burned up either.

 

[AndOne]

very true Behe's Boy, the fire is not quenched... however, the verse does not say that the soul is naturally immortal... and that's the very heart of the difference between these two doctrines:

is the soul inherently immortal, or is it a gift from Jesus Christ?

All you are doing is adding to the statement.

The heart of the issue is you are limiting the glory of our Righteous Creator. If punishment for sin isn't eternal than the God whom we sin against must not be. That's where your doctrine ends up - which is anti-scriptural to the core....

 

[R Baker]

There are two, and only two, destinations of a person's soul after death to which everyone will be consigned. Each are given the exact same duration: the place of "EVERLASTING" punishment and the place of "EVERLASTING" life. If Hell is not everlasting then we have no warrant to believe that Heaven is everlasting. If a soul is not everlasting - no matter to which place it is consigned - then Jesus died needlessly and all is vanity. If the eternal flames of Hell consume a "non"-eternal soul, completing the satisfaction of divine justice of the eternal God then we have two propitiatory systems in the divine plan.

 

[Super Kal]

wow, that's a laugh.
never have i limited the righteousness of God... i go by what the Bible tells us. you just inserted that into my post.

yes, the Bible does say punishment to sin is eternal... but the Bible does not say the sinner's soul is immortal. the sad thing with this doctrine is that it ignores all other verses that speak of the wicked being consumed, or burned up, or destroyed, and it also creates a non-Biblical dualism.

Revelation 21:4 comes to mind...
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever"

so either the angel is lying to John, and death, suffering, pain, and torment still exist after the new heaven and new earth are created...
or
the angel is telling the truth to John, and death, pain, suffering, and torment will no longer exist when the new heaven and earth are created...

 

[Super Kal]

edit

 

[Super Kal]

There are two, and only two, destinations of a person's soul after death to which everyone will be consigned. Each are given the exact same duration: the place of "EVERLASTING" punishment and the place of "EVERLASTING" life. If Hell is not everlasting then we have no warrant to believe that Heaven is everlasting. If a soul is not everlasting - no matter to which place it is consigned - then Jesus died needlessly and all is vanity. If the eternal flames of Hell consume a "non"-eternal soul, completing the satisfaction of divine justice of the eternal God then we have two propitiatory systems in the divine plan.

there is another question, though, that we have to ask ourselves before we discuss this doctrine of eternal torment/conditional immortality further:

is "hell" the lake of fire or not?

 

[R Baker]

wow, that's a laugh.
never have i limited the righteousness of God... i go by what the Bible tells us. you just inserted that into my post.

yes, the Bible does say punishment to sin is eternal... but the Bible does not say the sinner's soul is immortal. the sad thing with this doctrine is that it ignores all other verses that speak of the wicked being consumed, or burned up, or destroyed, and it also creates a non-Biblical dualism.

Revelation 21:4 comes to mind...
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever"

so either the angel is lying to John, and death, suffering, pain, and torment still exist after the new heaven and new earth are created...
or
the angel is telling the truth to John, and death, pain, suffering, and torment will no longer exist when the new heaven and earth are created...

"the Bible does not say the sinner's soul is immortal"

So we have a heaven that lasts forever-where Jesus said He was going to prepare for us (Jn.14:2-3)-in which our soul will eventually what? - die? - disappear? The righteous are given Eternal Life but their souls will at the same time die? and the unrighteous are sentenced to eternal damnation which is also a "state" of the soul not simply a place.


Regarding Rev.21. Who are the ones this subject is regarding "...the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” v8 ? or "His people" v3 and "He who overcomes" v7?

1 Cor.15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Our resurrection life is dependent upon and commensurate with Christ's resurrection life stemming from our union with Him, an unbreakable, indissoluble, eternal union.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Rubiks]

...the place of "EVERLASTING" punishment and the place of "EVERLASTING" life...

Exactly, if Hell is temporary, then Heaven is also temporary.

 

[Super Kal]

if you read 1 Corinthians 15 in its context, you'll see that he is talking specifically to Christians, not Christians and sinners.
and on John 14:3... i go to prepare a place for you"... notice He says GOING to prepare a place... it's not prepared yet. He also says He will receive us unto Himself. that doesnt mean we go to heaven immediately upon death, for if that were the case...

Jesus would of gone into heaven immediately after his death... but He didn't (John 20:17)
the thief on the cross would of immediately ascended into heaven upon death... but he didn't. (Matthew 12:38-45, John 20:17)
King David would of ascended immediately into heaven after his death... but he didn't. (Acts 2:28,34)
Daniel would of immediately ascended into heaven after his death... but he didn't. (Daniel 12:13)
everyone would ascend immediately into heaven after death... but we dont. (John 3:13)

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON


Just a reminder for those playing along at home:

Annihilationism is not allowed to be discussed outside of Unorthodox Theology. This will be enforced henceforth.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[Hillsage]

there is another question, though, that we have to ask ourselves before we discuss this doctrine of eternal torment/conditional immortality further:

is "hell" the lake of fire or not?

Or is God the lake of fire since scripture says "God is a consuming fire"? And since "death AND hell are cast into the lake of fire" maybe one ought to wonder about questions like that too IMO.

 

[drstevej]

Can we move this thread to UTD?

 

[billybtennessee]

Don't see the tie to 'soteriology', either, but, in reference to Mark 9:48, the wording is not 'a' worm, but it is "their" worm. Meaning, for all that will be there, "their worm dieth not" which is eternal. God Bless.

 

[Ronald]

Eternal is an English word that is translated from the word aeon or aeonios. These words are used with variable meanings. When applied to God or His domain, it means forever. Concerning our salvation, it means forward in time infinitely. But in many instances when describing things that are made which are temporal and part of the earth, it means a generation(s), an age or ages, a lifetime, an epoch but all of these are temporal and come to an end. If Hades is part of the earth, which I think it is, at the end of the age, Hades and death are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and destroyed. Now destroy means just that, to put an end to, exterminate, annihilate. Traditional Christianity has attached this extended, never-ending meaning to it. It's like an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing which are contradictions. If you burn a piece of paper, you destroy it. It becomes ashes, it can't be destroyed continuously. Punishment can go on continuously, but that is a different word. If you view this Lake of Fire as an event that happens at the end of the age when the first heaven and earth pass away in a fervent heat along with all who are in Hades and unregenate alive at the time, then it too will pass away.

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Rev. 20:14
I do believe the fire is literal and the bodies thrown in are physical as well.

"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, ..." Rev. 21:1
The former earth is physical and it is physically burned.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." 2 Pet. 3:10
Now is the earth going to continue to be destroyed and burned forever? No.


"...looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?" 2 Pet. 3:12


“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." Isaiah 65:17

Finally, God will destroy both body and soul in Hell ( lake of fire), otherwise this next verse is an empty threat.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt 10:28
Another translation:
And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. YLT
The Gehenna became an actual burning dump of criminals, diseased bodies and dead animals. In ancient times, child sacrifices to Molech were made there (Jer. 32:35). It became a kind of perpetual dump from which many concepts of Hell come from. It was a physical area outside Jerusalem. Jesus cursed the Pharisees to Gehenna and asked how they would escape this judgment (Matt 23:33)

 

[billybtennessee]

Words do matter. Exactly how given in scripture. It does NOT say God "will" destroy both soul and body in hell, but that God is "able" to. Another mis-quote.

It is Jesus Christ Himself who has revealed that punishment will be eternal, just as eternal as life, in Matt. 25:56. And it is also Jesus Christ who tells us "their worm dieth not". This is also the meaning of the teaching of the eye, and the hand, and the foot. If annihilation was true, the warning He gave would not be as grave as that warning is. Mark 9:43,45,47. Which just further gives depth to Mark 9:48.

Out of this. God Bless, again.

 

[Butch5]

The soul cannot be immortal since it requires the breath of God to exist.