hell

[Mikecpking]

Which is obviously referring to their physical deaths.

Rev 20
"They will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Vague OT does not overrule perfectly clear NT.

Only the beast, false prophet and the devil.

 

[dollarsbill]

Only the beast, false prophet and the devil.

Nope. Those who receive the Mark also. Which clearly includes humans, including the 'false prophet'.

 

[Timothew]

OK. I'll rephrase ... why don't you believe Rev 20:13 ?

What!?

Why are you saying this? I looked up R20:13, this is what I'm all about.
???

Did you mistake the passage or something? Are you listening to someone telling lies about me?

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

I believe this is absolutely true. Who told you that I didn't believe this?
What part do you think I don't believe? This is very disturbing.

Why do you think this?

 

[Mikecpking]

Nope. Those who receive the Mark also. Which clearly includes humans, including the 'false prophet'.

Yes, you are right. But those who are thrown into the lake of fire who did not receive the mark (those not found in the book of life) will be thrown into the lake of fire, I believe to be annihilated which is the second death.

 

[Exjunkman]

Yes, you are right. But those who are thrown into the lake of fire who did not receive the mark (those not found in the book of life) will be thrown into the lake of fire, I believe to be annihilated which is the second death.

I'm not entirely sold on the notion of annihilationalism, but the term "second death" really seems self explanatory. If it meant eternal torture, that wouldn't be much of a death, but ceasing to exist would.

I know...not scriptural, but just think about it.

 

[Timothew]

I'm not entirely sold on the notion of annihilationalism, but the term "second death" really seems self explanatory. If it meant eternal torture, that wouldn't be much of a death, but ceasing to exist would.

I know...not scriptural, but just think about it.

The second death as a second death is very scriptural. The second death as "not death but eternal torture" is nonsense.

 

[dollarsbill]

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 21 clearly confirms eternal torment in the fire.

 

[Timothew]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Clearly indicates the penalty is destruction.

 

[dollarsbill]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Clearly indicates the penalty is destruction.

If God meant 'cease to exist' He would simply have said destroyed. No need for 'eternal' whatsoever.

 

[strangertoo]

Which opens the door for us to believe whatever, rather than what God said.

since one cannot enter the kingdom without spirit baptism, surely it is worth waiting for spirit baptism BEFORE deciding what to believe in [from God Himself -John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11] and indeed thus understanding what is unaltered in scripture [since we know all source material has been edited]

The YLT agrees that eternal life and eternal punishment are the same, NEVER ending.

not quite sure how you think that, but time is created , thus finite ...not unending ... even science has proven time is local and created integral to space-time universes ... so it ends with the end of this heavens in the wrath of God :-

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
...
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end ...

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

 

[strangertoo]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Clearly indicates the penalty is destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 [YLT] who shall suffer justice—destruction age-during—from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

destruction until the end of the age ... Jesus was destroyed [Greek 'apoleia'] for three nights only, but it makes no odds how long ... all the dead are resurrected from hell in the next age -Rev 20:13 - few men are NOT destroyed first [Matt 7:13-14]

 

[Timothew]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 [YLT] who shall suffer justice—destruction age-during—from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength

destruction until the end of the age ... Jesus was destroyed [Greek 'apoleia'] for three nights only, but it makes no odds how long ... all the dead are resurrected from hell in the next age -Rev 20:13 - few men are NOT destroyed first [Matt 7:13-14]

Eternal destruction is not destruction that only lasts until the end of the age. That's why it's called eternal destruction. The one who is destroyed on Judgment Day remains destroyed forever. And they sure as heck aren't tortured forever.

 

[Timothew]

If God meant 'cease to exist' He would simply have said destroyed. No need for 'eternal' whatsoever.

There is certainly a need for the word eternal as Strangertoo's comment just indicated. If the word "eternal" weren't in there, people might assume that the destruction only lasts until the end of the age.

Every word of God is flawless. Proverbs 30:5

 

[Mikecpking]

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 21 clearly confirms eternal torment in the fire.

Those who worshipped the beast will probably be the exception to the rule, the rest IMO will be annihilated which is the second death.

 

[dollarsbill]

since one cannot enter the kingdom without spirit baptism, surely it is worth waiting for spirit baptism BEFORE deciding what to believe in [from God Himself -John 16:13, Heb 8:10-11] and indeed thus understanding what is unaltered in scripture [since we know all source material has been edited]

Don't you believe everyone will be saved? Even the worst of sinners? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If so then why be concerned?

 

[dollarsbill]

Those who worshipped the beast will probably be the exception to the rule, the rest IMO will be annihilated which is the second death.

The second death does not imply annihilated. They still live after the second death, the Lake of Fire.

 

[Timothew]

The second death does not imply annihilated. They still live after the second death, the Lake of Fire.

No, the bible does not say that the wicked still live after dying in the second death. According to the bible, the wicked perish and are no more.
Psalm 37:20 (But the wicked perish,) Psalm 37:10 (the wicked will be no more)

After dying twice, the wicked still live? No, that is not logical nor biblical.

 

[Super Kal]

i never did understand how traditionalists get everlasting life from "second death"... death is exactly what it means: death. you have to read into that phrase to get a different meaning. like Timothew stated above, the Psalms are perfect examples of the "destruction" of the wicked

 

[strangertoo]

misunderstanding of Love by the many of mass religion is SEEN to be WORSE as one begins to read ALL the scripture and understand what it is SAYING AS A WHOLE word of God ... [that God is the perfect Love of ALL, that God simply cannot 'lose' anyone, it is impossible , else God would not be God if He could not persuade everyone in the end that He is RIGHT, Love of others is teh very best way for all men to live together]

then once you start trying to UNDERSTAND, instead of trying to defend what you decided BEFORE SPIRIT BAPTISM... you find out that crucifixion is called 'destruction' ['apoleia'] in the NT and Jesus survived destruction and hell without any eternal torment whatever nor any annihilation , showed us all the WAY of ALL eventually [what does God care about WHEN we are saved! ... only men insist His mercy ends in this life, the scripture says otherwise] :-

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

 

[Mikecpking]

The second death does not imply annihilated. They still live after the second death, the Lake of Fire.

Death does not mean life, it it the opposite of life. You may as well argue white is black or vice versa.