Hell.

[Lysimachus]

 

[Timothew]

Won't work. We are commanded to fear God. It is not a request.

Aha! Fear God who alone has the ultimate power of Eternal Life or eternal death. NOT fear hell, which is really just Hades, Sheol, the grave. I will be resurrected from the grave to eternal life. God will not let his servant stay in Sheol, the grave.

 

[GOD is LOVE is GOD]

Aha! Fear God who alone has the ultimate power of Eternal Life or eternal death. NOT fear hell, which is really just Hades, Sheol, the grave. I will be resurrected from the grave to eternal life. God will not let his servant stay in Sheol, the grave.

I agree with most of this statement. If I may, I would like to try to explain my point of view on this subject of Hell being the grave. I have been trying to work out this explanation in my head, so forgive me if I ramble.. It's a curse.. LOL

In regards to the phrases like "eternal destruction", "eternal ruin", "eternal punishment", etc. There is a reason that the word "eternal" is added to the other words. See, "eternal" means timeless, uninterrupted, endless. The word is specifically used in Scripture to describe things of God ~ who He is, how he does things, etc. He works outside of time, therefore is eternal, He always has been, and always will be. So, to say that Hades, Shoel, is just "the grave" or ceasing to exist puts a limit on God's punishment. That would mean that His punishment, His eternal judgement for sin is only the means to an ultimate end. That when the last of the sinners are "burned up" or cease to exist, God is done with His punishments. But, we know this to be incorrect because the bible says "eternal punishment", or timeless, uninterrupted, endless punishment..

Now, if you say that the "eternal punishment" IS death or ceasing to exist, because death is eternal at the hands of God, this doesn't make sense either. This would imply that we still have consciousness, knowing that we will never be in the presence of God for eternity. Or else it could not be punishment, it is just nothingness. I mean, why add the word in the first place? Shouldn't "destruction" or "punishment" relay the message just fine? No, because God's way is not our way. For now, on Earth, we are living temporally, thinking and reasoning with a temporal view on things. "Eternal" is the way of God..

I hope I didn't ramble too much. Tim, as I have said before, agreeing to disagree is just fine on these kind of subjects. I am elated though to have a brother in Christ like you ~ as we are one on the important subjects.. saved by the Blood of Christ!

Blessings and Peace to all!

1 Corinthians 13:11-13
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

11 When I was a child,
I spoke like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man,
I put aside childish things.
12 For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
as I am fully known.
13 Now these three remain:
faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love.

 

[dollarsbill]

Aha! Fear God who alone has the ultimate power of Eternal Life or eternal death. NOT fear hell, which is really just Hades, Sheol, the grave.

You're splitting hairs. Fear God because He can and does send the wicked to the eternal fire.

 

[Timothew]

You're splitting hairs. Fear God because He can and does send the wicked to the eternal fire.

I'm not splitting hairs. There is a huge difference between being burnt up by the eternal fire thus dying there and being given eternal life in the eternal fire being tortured there forever.

According to the bible, those who go to the "eternal fire" are destroyed by it.

 

[dollarsbill]

I'm not splitting hairs. There is a huge difference between being burnt up by the eternal fire thus dying there and being given eternal life in the eternal fire being tortured there forever.

According to the bible, those who go to the "eternal fire" are destroyed by it.

'Eternal life', 'eternal fire', eternal means the same, NEVER ending.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I found this video interesting (sorry, I couldn't find it on YouTube)

Wright on Hell & Bell on Vimeo

I liked this video as well:

What Is Hell Like? Does It Even Exist? NT Wright on 100 Huntley Street (HD) - YouTube

 

[Lysimachus]

I agree with most of this statement. If I may, I would like to try to explain my point of view on this subject of Hell being the grave. I have been trying to work out this explanation in my head, so forgive me if I ramble.. It's a curse.. LOL

In regards to the phrases like "eternal destruction", "eternal ruin", "eternal punishment", etc. There is a reason that the word "eternal" is added to the other words. See, "eternal" means timeless, uninterrupted, endless. The word is specifically used in Scripture to describe things of God ~ who He is, how he does things, etc. He works outside of time, therefore is eternal, He always has been, and always will be. So, to say that Hades, Shoel, is just "the grave" or ceasing to exist puts a limit on God's punishment. That would mean that His punishment, His eternal judgement for sin is only the means to an ultimate end. That when the last of the sinners are "burned up" or cease to exist, God is done with His punishments. But, we know this to be incorrect because the bible says "eternal punishment", or timeless, uninterrupted, endless punishment..

Now, if you say that the "eternal punishment" IS death or ceasing to exist, because death is eternal at the hands of God, this doesn't make sense either. This would imply that we still have consciousness, knowing that we will never be in the presence of God for eternity. Or else it could not be punishment, it is just nothingness. I mean, why add the word in the first place? Shouldn't "destruction" or "punishment" relay the message just fine? No, because God's way is not our way. For now, on Earth, we are living temporally, thinking and reasoning with a temporal view on things. "Eternal" is the way of God..

I hope I didn't ramble too much. Tim, as I have said before, agreeing to disagree is just fine on these kind of subjects. I am elated though to have a brother in Christ like you ~ as we are one on the important subjects.. saved by the Blood of Christ!

Blessings and Peace to all!

1 Corinthians 13:11-13
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

11 When I was a child,
I spoke like a child,
I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man,
I put aside childish things.
12 For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror,
but then face to face.
Now I know in part,
but then I will know fully,
as I am fully known.
13 Now these three remain:
faith, hope, and love.
But the greatest of these is love.

The main problem I see with your perspective is that you are evaluating the expression "eternal punishment" from a modern English perspective, not from an ancient Hebrew or Greek mind. Much study has gone into their fancy way of writing. Keep in mind that the word "eternal" or "forever" is translated in the LXX from the Hebrew word "eternal" or "forever" in context of numerous occasions in which the subject in question came to an end. Such as Samuel as High Priest forever, or Jonah in the Belly of the Whale forever.


Keep also in mind that there is no such expression as "eternal hell-fire". Or even "eternal hell". Remember, we already know that souls "die" (Ezekiel 18:4, 20), not "just" their bodies. Death = cessation of existence, not "eternal existence in hell".


Also, you are making the expression "eternal punishment" really mean "eternal punishing". Punishing has to do with an unceasing present state of occurrence. Punishment would be in allusion to a one time process that has endless results.


It could also mean a "punishment" that comes from an "eternal God". Not that the punishing process is endless. This ideology is what makes the atheists cringe.


I'll sum up what I believe to be the correct way to view it:


"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the words “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the same Greek word, “aionos”.


Notice that while 2 Thess. 1:9 uses the phrase "everlasting destruction", Psalms 9:5,6 says... "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a PERPETUAL END."


So notice how "forever and ever", and "perpetual" are CONJOINED with the term "destructions" and "END". Ask yourself the question, God is LOVE is God, do the scriptures contradict themselves? Or perhaps do these scriptures provide a deeper explanation for other more difficult passages? God has given us the tools to crack these mysteries, and we have no excuse to not understand what God means. The Bible was written in such a way to give ROOM to those who desire to misinterpret it. As it tests people, to see how anxious they are to dig for the truth and crack the codes.


Once you put ALL the scripture pieces of the puzzle together, the truth begins to shine, and bring JOY to your soul!


This is one of the most glorious, and beautiful truths that the whole world needs to know. It is my prayer that this glorious truth of God's love and justice will transform the hearts of believers, bring tears to their eyes, and increase their apprecation for their Master and their Saviour!


God bless.

 

[Kepha]

That is simply injecting more into the text than what it actually says.

No, it's hearing the oral explicit teaching of Hell, being handed down through the Church and preserved with care without seeing any sort of controversy over it till recent years.

Glancing through your quotes as I read it, are again nothing more than exaggerations and metaphors describing the condition of the soul. To perish means to perish from an eternal life with Christ. Without Christ there is no life, but death. Death in the sense of a spiritual death, as in no goodness to be found. That to me is to perish. It's to be cut off. It's to be consumed by punishment from and unquenchable fire and pain.
If it's referenced that the fire will continue, you will say "But it doesn't mention the evil doers does it" when I would reply "there is no need since an eternal fire is meant for eternal souls otherwise, there is no need for an eternal fire or making mention of it." I see weeping and gnashing of teeth, to speak of the damned and no mention of it ceasing.
If we speak of using the words eternal when referencing the damned, you say it can have two meanings yet you choose one way (has an end) over the other. Now to me, it really does mean eternal in the same sense of eternal life. Because it's unclear to you, you then use a simplistic understanding what a spiritual death is, and allow it to influence your decision of which direction to go with that definition of said word.

None qualify "only the body burns, but the soul goes on living". It says the "wicked". Are you implying that only their bodies are wicked, but not their souls? Really? Huh?

What are you on about? I never even suggested the body burns up completely. I've no problem with believe in an undead body physical body having the ability to remain completely intact by a purging spiritual punishing fire. The same one that is purging those before their bodies are given back to them. But your belief in soul sleep blinds you in even comprehending this hell fire not on par with an actual physical fire on earth.

We are better off just taking the Bible just for what it says, and not inject human reasoning into it.

That's amusing considering your human reasoning (God could never allow his creation to suffer forever) has influenced your interpretation skills of your 'proofs'.

These passages are not symbolic like Revelation, full of symbols such as Horns, Beasts, Dragons, etc., or the parables of the Rich Man and Lazarus taught by Jesus. This is describing the exact fate of the wicked.

Metaphors and hyperboles are not symbols either.

 

[Timothew]

'Eternal life', 'eternal fire', eternal means the same, NEVER ending.

Yes, Absolutely! And eternal death means the same. Death which never ends.

 

[Rick Otto]

eternal hiccups. =8O

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, Absolutely! And eternal death means the same. Death which never ends.

Then there would be no need for 'eternal', just 'dead' would be sufficient.

 

[Timothew]

Then there would be no need for 'eternal', just 'dead' would be sufficient.

We will be resurrected from death when Jesus returns. Those who die the second death will not be resurrected from the second death, it is eternal.

 

[dollarsbill]

We will be resurrected from death when Jesus returns. Those who die the second death will not be resurrected from the second death, it is eternal.

Can't be eternal punishment if they don't exist anymore.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Yes, eternal means eternal. And forever means forever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Timothew]

Can't be eternal punishment if they don't exist anymore.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Yes, eternal means eternal. And forever means forever.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yes, the punishment is eternal, if they don't exist anymore. That's the punishment. The wages of sin is death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill 'Eternal life', 'eternal fire', eternal means the same, NEVER ending.

Yes, Absolutely! And eternal death means the same. Death which never ends.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7639291/#post60027470

Originally Posted by Ceridwen God punishes with a punishment of death rather than life. It is a curse rather than a blessing. A punishment to destroy rather than a punishment to rehabilitate. "The Wages of Sin is Death."

This is true. It also shows that the penalty of sin is eternal destruction, not eternal torture in hell. The blessing of God is eternal life. The curse of God is eternal destruction. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Makes sense to me

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
AV — perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2

Young) Matthew 10:28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body and are not able to kill the soul,
but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy/apolesai <622> (5658) in gehenna.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, the punishment is eternal, if they don't exist anymore. That's the punishment. The wages of sin is death.

There would no need for the word 'eternal' or 'everlasting' or 'forever'. None whatsoever.

 

[Lysimachus]

Can't be eternal punishment if they don't exist anymore.

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Yes, eternal means eternal. And forever means forever.

Perhaps you did not read the following in my previous posts, so I'll post it one more time here:

"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the words “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the same Greek word, “aionos”.

Scriptures do not teach endless burning of the ungodly. Only the righteous will dwell in everlasting burnings (Isa. 33:14-16).

 

[Timothew]

There would no need for the word 'eternal' or 'everlasting' or 'forever'. None whatsoever.

The bible is true. Eternal Destruction is destruction that lasts forever.
Complain to the author if you don't like it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps you did not read the following in my previous posts, so I'll post it one more time here:

And of course, it is worthy of mention that the words &#8220;everlasting&#8221; and &#8220;eternal&#8221; in the New Testament are both translated from the same Greek word, &#8220;aionos&#8221;.

Scriptures do not teach endless burning of the ungodly. Only the righteous will dwell in everlasting burnings (Isa. 33:14-16).

Young'sLT correctly renders that greek word

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages amen.
And I am having the Keysof the Hades and of the Death

touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Beast ....................

aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"
&#12288;
touV aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the fire and of sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet. And they shall be being tormented of day and of night into the Ages of the Ages.
&#12288;
touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>