Hell.

[Lysimachus]

Forever doesn't mean forever? John disagreed with you.

Then scriptures disagree with itself. You better not believe Isaiah 34 either, as it was lieing too.

Scripture please.

Huh? That doesn't even make sense in light of what I said. I said NO scriptures state that only the body burns up as you suggest. It says that the wicked burn up. I gave you the link to all the verses. Did you read them? It is you who needs to provide scriptures that prove that it is only their bodies that burn up but their soul goes on living eternally in hell-fire.

You have a tendency to quote small portions out of people's posts, and then act as though that is the only thing the person said, rather than looking at the entire post as a "whole" and responding to the overall thrust and message of what the person is saying. Read my entire post and get the overall "gist" of what people are saying rather than taking them out of context.

Yeah, that's a great reason for humans to repent.

Feeling agony all over your body for even one minute is enough for them to repent. More than that, the thought of being eternally separated from God and never being able to enjoy life again should be terrifying enough in itself to bring them to repentance.

The doctrine of eternal torment has created more atheists out of Christians than any other doctrine. It's even all over youtube. Tons of atheists making videos, showing how they became atheist because they could not believe in a God that tortures his people forever.

There may be rare exceptions, such as yourself, who the fear of fire brought you to repentance, but that does not speak on a whole for everyone. The negative of this doctrine is surely is outweighing the positive.

Does drowning everyone on Earth but 8 sound "sadistic"?

It's a lot better than drowning them for eternity, yet God keeping them alive.

They all died. Every wicked person that died in the flood has no present consciousness. All wicked that have died will resurrect at the second resurrection at the end of the millennium, and be thrown in the Lake of Fire that covers the earth. This fire will dissolve everything.

Scripture you ask?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
​

If the ashes are going to be "under the soles" of our feet, we know it is the same earth that will be recreated, and made new. Thus the Lake of Fire that covered the breadth of the earth is removed.

Ok, forever means forever, as in NEVER ending.

The results or consequences, are never ending, because the fire comes from an eternal God, hence, "eternal fire", but this does not mean the actual burning process lasts forever. It does not mean that there is a continual state of consciousness in those flames forever either.

So God will burn people alive for a very long time but not forever? Excuse me but aren't you the one who said that would be "sadistic" of God? So how long will Hitler burn?

It's not sadistic if it is "according to their works". Some will snuff out in a heart-beat if they didn't know much, but are still deserving of stripes. But those who knew their master, and did not obey, will burn longer. It will be fair punishment for all. Everyone will burn a at a different length and different intensity depending on how much they knew and how much they rejected. Sadistic is only when one burns everyone for the same length of time, even when some wicked did a lot more brutal crimes than others, and some, although did no harm to anyone and were good to others yet did not get saved, have to burn as long as those who committed the most cruel crimes.

God is a just God. Everyone will burn in length according to his works.

 

[Yab Yum]

Whether we read it as "forever and forever" or "unto the ages of ages" is irrelevant. For a human the difference between an infinite amount of time and a gazillion amount of ages of time is irrelevant. Regarding the difference between eternity and sempiternity:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

 

[SplendidTree]

Mod Hat On

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Mod Hat Off​

 

[Kepha]

It actually amazes me of people here attempting to lay the principles involving the physical nature of actual fire, to that of Hell fire which causes pain to a soul without a body and suggest that to be burnt up to ash, isn't a mere hyperbole to get their point across in the extreme sense.

 

[Gnarwhal]

It actually amazes me of people here attempting to lay the priciples involvoing the physical nature of actual fire, to that of Hell fire which causes pain to a soul without a body and suggest that to be burnt up to ash, isn't a mere hyperbole to get their point across in the extreme sense.

The idea of a disembodied soul is Platonism. I'm not mentioning this because I support the view that Dante's hell is accurate, just that Platonism isn't necessarily an orthodox theology.

 

[Kepha]

The idea of a disembodied soul is Platonism. I'm not mentioning this because I support the view that Dante's hell is accurate, just that Platonism isn't necessarily an orthodox theology.

I'm unaware of any Catholic or Orthodox teaching to have ever believed in soul sleep in the 2000 years of Christianity. So when you say it isn't necessarily an Orthodox theology, who are you talking about?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm unaware of any Catholic or Orthodox teaching to have ever believed in soul sleep in the 2000 years of Christianity. So when you say it isn't necessarily an Orthodox theology, who are you talking about?

Orthodox with a small "o", as in correct or incorrect theology.

 

[Timothew]

It actually amazes me of people here attempting to lay the principles involving the physical nature of actual fire, to that of Hell fire which causes pain to a soul without a body and suggest that to be burnt up to ash, isn't a mere hyperbole to get their point across in the extreme sense.

I actually amazes me that people ignore the plain meanings of words when they read the bible. I heard on the radio news that some houses were destroyed in an explosion. I think everyone knows what destroyed means, so the news story had no explanation of what happened to the houses, other than that they were destroyed. I guess the newscaster thought everyone kows what destroyed meant. But in 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 when it says "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction", suddenly there are a lot of people feigning ignorance about what destruction means.

We know what "burnt up" means. "I burnt up all of Joe's cigarettes." We know that there are none left. But when the bible talks about being "Burnt up" in a furnace, suddenly the meaning changes to "Never burnt up, but always burning." Why is that? I believe it is because if the usual language is used, it disproves eternal torment. Some people would rather disregard what the bible says if it goes against the preconceptions they learned in sunday school.

 

[God's Word]

This thread has undergone a cleanup due to the violation of CF rules.

Flaming and Harassment: Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.

There you have it, folks. A "flame"-less "Hell"...

 

[Noxot]

my lord was crying and said i do not want to miss you from 2 ages, please look at my face and don't look away. behold I will purify all things and darkness will be turned into light. as you are darkness when you look away but I became darkness for your sake, it was part of my plan so that you may know that i am the Lord and that there is no other besides me. but I know that many will be offended in me and my son, and that is the same thing that happened in my gospel, as it always happens.

but look inside your heart, at how you judge people that look differently than you, and you judge people who are blind and can not see and you call them in your heart sinners, when you know that you too are a sinner. the blind lead the blind though they do not follow you, you both go one way and you fall into the pit but the Lord is the one that provides the remedy. test my Spirit and see if what i said is true, and stop believing that my spirit is your mind, you confused little children. behold, without me you can not see, but you are blind and the blind are blind that they are blind.

 

[Kepha]

I actually amazes me that people ignore the plain meanings of words when they read the bible. I heard on the radio news that some houses were destroyed in an explosion. I think everyone knows what destroyed means,

Yes, destroyed as in the house could no longer serve it's purpose, it was made for. Apply this to a human soul and we get: Destroyed as in the souls could no longer serve their purpose they were intended for. It's a hyperbole to signify something tramatic happening within that realm.

We know what "burnt up" means. "I burnt up all of Joe's cigarettes." We know that there are none left. But when the bible talks about being "Burnt up" in a furnace, suddenly the meaning changes to "Never burnt up, but always burning." Why is that?

Again, a hyperbole to reference the condition of the soul, not the elimination of it.

I believe it is because if the usual language is used, it disproves eternal torment.

Well a simple : "All souls in Hell would continue for awhile then cease to exist" would have sufficed don't you think.

 

[GOD is LOVE is GOD]

Isaiah 50:10-11
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

10 Who among you fears the LORD,
listening to the voice of His Servant?
Who among you walks in darkness,
and has no light?
Let him trust in the name of Yahweh;
let him lean on his God.
11 Look, all you who kindle a fire,
who encircle yourselves with[a] firebrands;
walk in the light of your fire
and in the firebrands you have lit!
This is what you’ll get from My hand:
you will lie down in a place of torment.

Jeremiah 23:39-40
39 I will surely forget you and throw away from My presence both you and the city that I gave you and your fathers. 40 I will bring on you everlasting shame and humiliation that will never be forgotten.”

 

[Lysimachus]

Yes, destroyed as in the house could no longer serve it's purpose, it was made for. Apply this to a human soul and we get: Destroyed as in the souls could no longer serve their purpose they were intended for. It's a hyperbole to signify something tramatic happening within that realm.

That is simply injecting more into the text than what it actually says.

"As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” Psalms 68:2

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” Psalms 37:9,10

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalms 37:20 (KJV)

“But the wicked shall perish; the enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” Psalms 37:20 (NKJV)

“But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalms 37:38

“Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.” Psalms 21:9

"He will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire” Matthew 3:12

Are these texts not plain enough?

None qualify "only the body burns, but the soul goes on living". It says the "wicked". Are you implying that only their bodies are wicked, but not their souls? Really? Huh?

"Wicked", and "they" = the entire person, body and soul together.

We are better off just taking the Bible just for what it says, and not inject human reasoning into it.

These passages are not symbolic like Revelation, full of symbols such as Horns, Beasts, Dragons, etc., or the parables of the Rich Man and Lazarus taught by Jesus. This is describing the exact fate of the wicked.

 

[dollarsbill]

"As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” Psalms 68:2

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” Psalms 37:9,10

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalms 37:20 (KJV)

“But the wicked shall perish; the enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” Psalms 37:20 (NKJV)

“But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalms 37:38

“Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.” Psalms 21:9

"He will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire” Matthew 3:12

Are these texts not plain enough?

None of that disproves eternal punishment.

"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[Timothew]

None of that disproves eternal punishment.

"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Yes he did, go back and re-read his post.

Read scripture by scripture. Interpret the unclear passage by the many clear passages that Lysimachus posted.

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes he did, go back and re-read his post.

Read scripture by scripture. Interpret the unclear passage by the many clear passages that Lysimachus posted.

If I'm wrong about eternal punishment I can't lose! Don't you wonder about those who deny eternal punishment and convince others who end up in Hell? And you still haven't and cannot refute the verse I just quoted. Forever means forever.

 

[Timothew]

If I'm wrong about eternal punishment I can't lose! Don't you wonder about those who deny eternal punishment and convince others who end up in Hell? And you still haven't and cannot refute the verse I just quoted. Forever means forever.

You haven't refuted ALL of the verses that Lysimachus posted, and all of those verses refute your misunderstanding of one verse.

You won't lose in the sense of losing eternal life in Christ, but you will lose because you are disagreeing with Him. What will happen on the last day when you tell Jesus that He has to torture all of the lost? Do you think He will be pleased with you? Will He see the "love" you show for others? He said that He will measure you with the standard that you use. Can you look into the face of Jesus Christ and see the disappointment in his eyes? Remember that these people that you say that He should torture are people that he loves, people that He would love to gather into His arms as a hen gathers her chicks together. You can lose.

 

[dollarsbill]

What will happen on the last day when you tell Jesus that He has to torture all of the lost?

I won't have to tell Him.

Do you think He will be pleased with you? Will He see the "love" you show for others?

Yes He will be pleased that I have warned others.

He said that He will measure you with the standard that you use. Can you look into the face of Jesus Christ and see the disappointment in his eyes?

He won't be disappointed in those who warn others. He commanded us to warn others. But He will not be pleased with those who don't warn.

Remember that these people that you say that He should torture are people that he loves, people that He would love to gather into His arms as a hen gathers her chicks together. You can lose.

They can repent and avoid Hell. How can I lose?

 

[Timothew]

And those who fear God and repent will thank me.

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Everyone will learn the fear of the Lord, but for many it will be too late.

Yes, those who believe your false message and reject the Lord because of it will perish. They won't be thanking you. The Lord will not thank you for their loss either.

Why don't you study the scriptures and come to an understanding of the truth instead?

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes, those who believe your false message and reject the Lord because of it will perish. They won't be thanking you. The Lord will not thank you for their loss either.

Why don't you study the scriptures and come to an understanding of the truth instead?

Won't work. We are commanded to fear God. It is not a request.