Hell.

[dollarsbill]

In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the 'fires' were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. So, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God.

Are you saying the Gehenna fire is unquenchable?

 

[Timothew]

Those who call others 'fool' will be shall be in danger of "the valley of Hinnom" ???

No, it says they shall be subject to the fire of the Valley of Hinnom.
So it is the same message as the rest of scripture, the wages of sin is death, the penalty is destruction, unless a person repents they will perish.
Fire burns up what it consumes.

 

[winifred]

Are you saying the Gehenna fire is unquenchable?

-----------------------------

I have no idea if the fires, in the valley of Hinnom, are still used to destroy the refuse of Jerusalem, as they were in our Lord's day. However 'that fire' (associated with destruction as it is) is the 'figure' our Lord uses to convey the 'unquenchable' nature of the fire - in 'the lake of fire,' which will be the means of the 'second death' spoken of in Revelation, isn't it dollarsbill?

(Rev 20:11-14)
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged
out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.'

* No believer, who has been saved by grace, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will stand before the great white throne.

PRAISE GOD! - For His mercy and His grace.

In Christ Jesus
Winnie

 

[winifred]

Are you saying the Gehenna fire is unquenchable?

Hi dollarsbill,

The fires of Gehenna were in constant use in our Lord's day, the body's of dead animals and the bodies of criminals who were denied buriel were disposed of there, along with the daily refuse of the people of Jerusalem. So, it was constantly aflame. As to whether the fire itself was unquenchable I should think not.

However the fire for which the Lord uses this as a 'figure', namely 'the lake of fire' is described as being unquenchable, at least for the length of time God has determined.

The word 'unquenchable' is only used in Scripture in relation to the chaff in (Matt 3:12/Luke 3:17). If that refers to 'the lake of fire' then, 'yes', it is unquenchable.

Thank you dollarsbill.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Winnie

 

[dollarsbill]

No, it says they shall be subject to the fire of the Valley of Hinnom.
So it is the same message as the rest of scripture, the wages of sin is death, the penalty is destruction, unless a person repents they will perish.
Fire burns up what it consumes.

So they threw those who called others "fool" in the fire? Thought you said God doesn't do that???

 

[dollarsbill]

I have no idea if the fires, in the valley of Hinnom, are still used to destroy the refuse of Jerusalem, as they were in our Lord's day. However 'that fire' (associated with destruction as it is) is the 'figure' our Lord uses to convey the 'unquenchable' nature of the fire - in 'the lake of fire,' which will be the means of the 'second death' spoken of in Revelation, isn't it dollars bill?

The fire of the valley of Hinnom was obviously not 'unquenchable'. So Jesus was referring to another fire that the NT calls unquenchable, eternal and everlasting.

 

[Ronald]

Most English translations agree with 'forever'. So you believe that God is going to burn the lost alive for a long time but not forever?

When the resurrection occurs, we who are alive will receive new bodies and those dead in Christ as well. People don't get that the lost souls in Hades will receive their bodies once again to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be destroyed, both body and soul. Will they burn for a long time? How long would it take for a human body to burn if thrown into a lava lake? Minutes.

Interesting attitude. However you strangely omit God's many promises to save our families and loved ones, if we believe His promises. I.E.

I recall a verse that says you and your household will be saved --whoever lives in your house, but that doesn't mean everyone in your family -- like my Mom, Dad and brother. They are responsible for their decision to receive Christ or reject him. Even God doesn't force them, he desires that all be saved, but not all are.

Mark 11:24 (NASB)
24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

OK, so if I pray that for the whole world to be saved, then everyone will be? NO! By grace through faith is a personal relationship that no one can force on you, not even through prayer. Prayer certainly helps, but the Devil snatches away souls and wars against us. We can certainly pray for people to be saved and if it was that easy, most people would be saved by just a simple request. The key words in this verse are: "believe that YOU have received them" Can you receive someone elses relationship or salvation, etc.??? NO.

 

[dollarsbill]

When the resurrection occurs, we who are alive will receive new bodies and those dead in Christ as well. People don't get that the dead well receive their bodies once again to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be destroyed, both body and soul. Burn for a long time? How long would it take for a human body to burn if thrown into a lava lake? Minutes.

What makes you think the lost won't receive eternal bodies also? That would indeed explain the NT terms, unquenchable, eternal and everlasting fire.

I recall a verse that says you and your household, but that doesn't not mean everyone in your family -- like my Mom, Dad and brother. They are responsible for their decision to receive Christ or reject him. Even God doesn't force them, he desires that all be saved, but not all are.

There are many promises in the Bible that cover ALL of our loved ones. God changes hearts for those who believe His promises.

OK, so if I pray that the world is saved and then everyone will be? By grace through faith is a personal relationship that no one can force on you. We can certainly pray for people to be saved and if if were that easy, most people would be saved by just a simple request. The key word in this verse are: "believe that YOU have received them" Can you receive someone elses relationship, salvation, etc.???

I have to ask, why wouldn't God save our loved ones? He certainly promised it.

It seems that you are so bent on eternal suffering, that it may have drained any mercy or compassion in you. It's like a vendetta as if you will be celebrating, "YEH the lost are suffering forever", shaking your fists with a vengence and satisfaction. ???

I didn't write the NT doctrine of eternal punishment. Your statement is totally uncalled for.

 

[winifred]

The fire of the valley of Hinnom was obviously not 'unquenchable'. So Jesus was referring to another fire that the NT calls unquenchable, eternal and everlasting.

You have missed the point, in that the word 'Hell' is translated from the word Gehenna in the verse quoted, and so it cannot be divorced from that association.

 

[dollarsbill]

You have missed the point, in that the word 'Hell' is translated from the word Gehenna in the verse quoted, and so it cannot be divorced from that association.

Ok. But my point is that many play word games with 'Hell', to try to discredit the NT doctrine of the eternal fire.

 

[Timothew]

Ok. But my point is that many play word games with 'Hell', to try to discredit the NT doctrine of the eternal fire.

Many more play word games with the translations, translating 4 different words all as hell, but not consistently, sometimes using different words to translate the words that are sometimes translated as hell, for no apparent reason except that if the words are translated logically and consistently it would destroy their doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

 

[dollarsbill]

Many more play word games with the translations, translating 4 different words all as hell, but not consistently, sometimes using different words to translate the words that are sometimes translated as hell, for no apparent reason except that if the words are translated logically and consistently it would destroy their doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

The NT punishment in the fire is still there and, eternal, unquenchable and everlasting. You haven't refuted anything.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes, God punishes humans in the fire.

 

[Timothew]

The NT punishment in the fire is still there and, eternal, unquenchable and everlasting. You haven't refuted anything.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NASB)
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes, God punishes humans in the fire.

I guess you haven't yet heard what a furnace of fire does to whatever is burnt up in it. Whatever is burnt up in a furnace of fire is consumed. It doesn't remain in there being tortured by the fire forever.

But I can see that you are totally committed to your doctrine of torment, so we can agree to disagree.

 

[someguy14]

Let God be true, but every man a liar. Gods will alone be done.

 

[dollarsbill]

I guess you haven't yet heard what a furnace of fire does to whatever is burnt up in it. Whatever is burnt up in a furnace of fire is consumed. It doesn't remain in there being tortured by the fire forever.

But I can see that you are totally committed to your doctrine of torment, so we can agree to disagree.

The eternal fire doesn't burn up 'spiritual bodies'. They are also eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (NASB)
42 If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Timothew]

The eternal fire doesn't burn up 'spiritual bodies'. They are also eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (NASB)
42 If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Unsaved people do not have "spiritual bodies."

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Maybe fornicators will have eternal "fun" fornicating etc.

 

[Lysimachus]

Ok. But my point is that many play word games with 'Hell', to try to discredit the NT doctrine of the eternal fire.

In the Old Testament, the word "hell" is translated 31 times from the Hebrew "Sheol", which means "the grave". A total of 10 times in the New Testament from the Greek word "Hades", which means "the grave". A total of 12 times from the Greek "Gehenna", which means "a place of burning", and 1 time from the Greek "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness".

Every time Christ used the word "Gehenna", He always applied it to the "end of the age". Therefore, no scriptures support that there is a burning place right now. None whatsoever. It's not a word game, it's simple plain and irrefutable fact.

The root of the problem to the doctrine of "eternal torment" (aka, "torturism"), is the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. This doctrine is the door to spiritualism for Christianity. It came from paganism, and got filtrated into Christianity.

It is through the doctrine of the immortality of the soul (that souls go on living after they die--and somehow, split off their bodies and go flying either to heaven or to some underground chambers) that it opens the way to spiritualism.

It will be through spiritualism and sorcery, according to Revelation, that all nations will be deceived. In the last days, diceased loved ones will appear, deceiving families that it is really them. They will convince them to worship the Antichrist and that He really is "the Christ". Because these people chose to believe a lie, and not believe that the dead are really dead, they will listen to these devilish spirits, thinking they are really their loved ones coming down from heaven to them, and they will fall for these delusions.

There is a little old lady who the Lord showed these things to. And mark my words, they will happen!

These are not deceased loved ones my friend. No no no! The dead are DEAD. And Satan wants the world to believe that the dead are not really dead!

Imagine Grandpa and Grandma living joyfully in heaven right now in spirit/ghost form. At the Second Coming, all the saints who went to heaven at death in spirit form come flying down at the Second Coming to join their new bodies (because for some odd reason, God can only make the new bodies next to the ground, lol), and then after these saints hop into their new bodies, they now get caught right back up into the clouds! This is a joyful event for them? What's new about this? Weren't they just in heaven before? Really, it makes no sense!

NO!

At the Second Coming, EVERY SAINT will go to heaven TOGETHER! AS A FAMILY!! There is NO consciousness of time between the time of death and the resurrection. It is like blinking your eye! "close eyes, open eyes"! So to you, it feels like going to heaven immediately after death. For someone who died 4,000 years ago, the time between death and the resurrection will feel no different than to the person who died yesterday and Jesus came tomorrow. There is no consciousness in death.

It is only a matter of simple logic. If there is no such thing as the immortality of the soul, then there is no such thing as a soul that goes on living in eternal fire either!

The LAST great delusion in the last days, that will deceive the MASSES of Christians the world over, is hinged on the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. And because they were willing to believe this lie, Satan will take advantage of it by sending them their deceased loved ones. But they are actually demons in disguise. They will tell them lies, and that we should worship the Antichrist and that he is really Jesus.

Only those who give up this doctrine will safeguard themselves from the overwhelming delusion that is about to sweep the whole globe. Only those who are firmly planted of the rock of salvation, on solid Biblical truth, will be able to discern that these are evil spirits disguising themselves as loved ones.

 

[dollarsbill]

Every time Christ used the word "Gehenna", He always applied it to the "end of the age". Therefore, no scriptures support that there is a burning place right now. None whatsoever. It's not a word game, it's simple plain and irrefutable fact.

How about later?

The root of the problem to the doctrine of "eternal torment" (aka, "torturism"), is the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul. This doctrine is the door to spiritualism for Christianity. It came from paganism, and got filtrated into Christianity. It is through the doctrine of the immortality of the soul (that souls go on living after they die--and somehow, split off their bodies and go flying either to heaven or to some underground chambers) that it opens the way to spiritualism.

Are you saying 'eternal life' isn't eternal?

At the Second Coming, EVERY SAINT will go to heaven TOGETHER! AS A FAMILY!!

Scripture please.

Only those who give up this doctrine will safeguard themselves from the overwhelming delusion that is about to sweep the whole globe.

Are you saying John was deluded?

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Lysimachus]

How about later?

Later they will be "burned up". The scriptural evidence is overwhelming. Click this link to see:
Immortality: Conditional or Innate? - Gives 265 verses from 158 chapters from 35 books of the Bible. These verses indicate that immortality is indeed conditional.

Also notice that it not ONE instance, does it say it is their "bodies only" that burn up. It does not qualify that. It specifically states that "they", the "persons" will burn up. The entire being! It specifically states they will be "no more", and as "though they had not been".

Are you saying 'eternal life' isn't eternal?

It is eternal life vs. eternal death. The eternal within God's sphere is as long as God shall last. The eternal within satan's sphere is eternal death. The fire comes from an eternal God which is a "consuming" fire. Not a fire that keeps the wicked alive forever and ever. Such a teaching would make God out to be the most sadistic being in the universe, worse than Hitler himself. Imagine holding not just your finger on the stove forever, but your entire body on the stove forever. More than that, imagine that heat a million times hotter forever.

Does this sound reasonable? No it doesn't. It is very unreasonable. It is as sadistic as you can get.

Scripture please.

I should not have to be providing you such scriptures, because you know them very well:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so [in this manner] shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

Unequivocally, Paul is showing what manner we will be with the Lord. In what manner? (which precisely what the Greek word for "so" means) When we all resurrect at the Second Advent, and are caught up to be with the Lord!

Are we with the Lord before other saints? No, it does not say that. It says TOGETHER! THAT is HOW we will ever be with the Lord. When we go up TOGETHER with those who fell asleep in Jesus.

Are you saying John was deluded?

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Let's not keep repeating ourselves. I showed you what this expression means a number of times, and you keep ignoring my explanations.

#1. John is deriving his cryptic language from Isaiah 34. Isaiah mentions about how the fire burns forever and ever, night and day, yet the same land where the fire is burning it is being inhabited by animals, and plants are growing, and the land is a "wasteland". This is a poetic language, which many of the Old Testament authors along with John the Revelator were used to writing.

#2. Revelation 20:10 is symbolic, not literal. Verse 19 mentions a "beast", and a "false prophet", which is analogous to the "harlot" woman burning forever and ever in Revelation 19:3. Is a literal beast, and a literal harlot woman going to be burning forever and ever? Obviously not. Yet in verse 9 where it speaks of the wicked, it says the fire "devoured" them.

#3. The expression "for ever and ever" has been proven exegetically to not mean "without end". Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", Samuel was "high priest" "for ever". But all of this meant until their death, of course.

The YLT and Rotherham translations render it the following:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." (Rev. 20:10, YLT)
​

and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages. (Rev. 20:10, Rotherham)
​

This expression means "age-during". It would be redundant to say "eternity of eternities", therefore, the very fact that it is doubled is proof that it is in reference to the duration and appointed task of the fire in accordance to the person's wicked deeds. Everyone will burn in different lengths and duration according to their works, according to the light they rejected. See Luke 12:46-49.