hell

New_Wineskin said:

Hell isn't a place that the Lord send people - it is a place that people choose while alive . They choose not to have a relationship with the Lord . At the Judgement Day , they see the Lord and are cast away . The thing is , all they have is each other - only those that have not desired a relationship with the Lord . Earth is bad enough most of the times . That is a lot worse .

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Do you have any scriptures that confirm this? Does the bible say anywhere that people choose hell? Please don't get angry. I'm just asking for scriptural support.

file13 said:

Oh yes, I know what the verses say. However, are you saying that you believe that people are (or rather will be) annihilated and won't actually suffer in everlasting Gehenna?

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I will say I believe that the unsaved will be annihilated after a God-determinated length of time in the lake of fire (Gehenna as a picture for the lake of fire).

Mikecpking said:

I will say I believe that the unsaved will be annihilated after a God-determinated length of time in the lake of fire (Gehenna as a picture for the lake of fire).

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My own belief is slightly different, that the unsaved die on judgement day. Only those who receive eternal life receive eternal life. Not those who perish.

God doesn't send His children to hell.

Timothew said:

My own belief is slightly different, that the unsaved die on judgement day. Only those who receive eternal life receive eternal life. Not those who perish.

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Hi Tim,
It certainly does happen on judgement day. It is certainly death at the end after being thrown into the lake of fire. Its only a question of the duration of existence to being destroyed. My belief is God will be merciful and it certainly won't be torture ad infinitum, but God being just, will certainly carry out judgement and give the feeling people will not get away with dealing with their sin just by becoming non-existent. There will be, in my view, a process of being annihilated in the lake of fire.

Timothew said:

Are you saying the wages of sin is NOT death, even though the bible says the wages of sin is death? Are you saying, despite this verse, that people will suffer in Gehenna?

According to the bible, people will either die (the wages of sin is death) or they will receive eternal life. (but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord. You said annilated. The bible says that the wages of sin is death.

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I'm happy to clarify if you are. But I asked first, so if you don't mind, can you please go first and I'll be happy to clarify. Is that fair?

So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that when folks die, their consciousness ceases? I.e. we are simply matter and when we experience death, that's it. In theological terms, annihilationism. Is this what you're saying?

Now please keep in mind that I'm not asking to pigeon hole you are immediately denouce you as a heretic. I'm just asking for clarification. There are many dear Christian brothers and sisters here (especially SDAs) who believe in annihilationism, so if this is what you're suggesting, you'll likely find plenty of folks who agree with you. But I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

11822 said:

God doesn't send His children to hell.

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true
but many people aren't his children
unbelievers and the self deceivers; etc

file13 said:

I'm happy to clarify if you are. But I asked first, so if you don't mind, can you please go first and I'll be happy to clarify. Is that fair?

So what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that when folks die, their consciousness ceases? I.e. we are simply matter and when we experience death, that's it. In theological terms, annihilationism. Is this what you're saying?

Now please keep in mind that I'm not asking to pigeon hole you are immediately denouce you as a heretic. I'm just asking for clarification. There are many dear Christian brothers and sisters here (especially SDAs) who believe in annihilationism, so if this is what you're suggesting, you'll likely find plenty of folks who agree with you. But I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

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This is the General Theology Sub-Forum.
There are some beliefs that can't be discussed here.

I believe Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.
I believe death is natural death, you don't leave your body and float off. Naturally you are not conscious when you are dead. What you see is what you get. You are conscious when you are alive, unless you are asleep. That may be a basic belief, but I thought "you are dead when you are dead" was a pretty basic belief as well, until I found out people think that you are alive when you are dead.
I believe when you die, you remain dead until Jesus returns and resurrects you on the last day. I believe that when He resurrects you, He decides if you get eternal life or not. Eternal life is life but it is eternal, it lasts forever. If someone doesn't receive eternal life, they die. Dying is the condition of not having life, eternal or otherwise. The bible calls this the second death.

I'm just using the words the bible uses in their natural everyday meaning. I don't redefine words according to some special bible "code" or anything like that. I've also learned to read greek, and the New Testament in greek also supports everything I am saying. Unless the words are radically re-defined as some people do. So death means death (Thanatos), Life means Life (Zoe), Destroy means destroy (apoleia). Apoleia can also mean Lose, in certain contexts, but those contexts don't give carte-blanche to redefine the meaning of apoleia in every context. Apoleia is the root word Jesus used when he said "Narrow is the way that leads to life, (zoe) but wide is the way that leads to destruction (apoleia).

Mikecpking said:

Hi Tim,
It certainly does happen on judgement day. It is certainly death at the end after being thrown into the lake of fire. Its only a question of the duration of existence to being destroyed. My belief is God will be merciful and it certainly won't be torture ad infinitum, but God being just, will certainly carry out judgement and give the feeling people will not get away with dealing with their sin just by becoming non-existent. There will be, in my view, a process of being annihilated in the lake of fire.

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Nobody "gets away" with anything by dying for their own sins. The wages of sin is death, that is the payment that is required, no more no less. This death can be yours or Christ's on your behalf. There is no need for additional torture before the payment of death is made.

Sieben said:

true
but many people aren't his children
unbelievers and the self deceivers; etc

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I agree

11822 said:

God doesn't send His children to hell.

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This.

Timothew said:

This is the General Theology Sub-Forum.
There are some beliefs that can't be discussed here.

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Ahh, I gotcha brother. I wasn't aware this particular interpretation was not allowed. Thanks for the heads up!

Timothew said:

I believe Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death.
I believe death is natural death, you don't leave your body and float off. Naturally you are not conscious when you are dead. What you see is what you get. You are conscious when you are alive, unless you are asleep. That may be a basic belief, but I thought "you are dead when you are dead" was a pretty basic belief as well, until I found out people think that you are alive when you are dead.

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If you haven't have guessed, I hold to the pretty boring orthodox view of the soul. But at the same time, I do respect that some folks do believe this view. That being said, I'm not so sure about your distinctions about consciousness really follow. People still experience consciousness even while asleep. Yes, it's an altered state of consciousness, but it is still a state of consciousness nonetheless and we're all familiar with the experience of dreams.

Concerning the understanding of the term "death," I'm not sure we can apply your straightforward and single interpretation consistently throughout Scripture. After all, we have to acknowledge that "death" is not always used in a literal manner. For example:Of course we find shortly after this that Lazarus does die (v 13). So what are we to make of this if we take a single literal interpretation here? Is Christ lying? Not omniscient and just didn't know better? Or by "death" (and note the Greek 'thanaton' here in verse 4 and verse 13), does Christ mean something else then just physical death?

Timothew said:

I'm just using the words the bible uses in their natural everyday meaning. I don't redefine words according to some special bible "code" or anything like that. I've also learned to read greek, and the New Testament in greek also supports everything I am saying. Unless the words are radically re-defined as some people do. So death means death (Thanatos), Life means Life (Zoe), Destroy means destroy (apoleia). Apoleia can also mean Lose, in certain contexts, but those contexts don't give carte-blanche to redefine the meaning of apoleia in every context. Apoleia is the root word Jesus used when he said "Narrow is the way that leads to life, (zoe) but wide is the way that leads to destruction (apoleia).

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As I hinted at above brother, I think you may be falling into a common lexical hermeneutical fallacy here, specifically what's sometimes called the "selective use fallacy," where the interpreter selects a single meaning for a word and applies it everywhere regardless of the context. As I mentioned above with the use of 'thanatos' that clearly cannot refer to literal physical death, it would seem you might be falling into the trap brother. We always have to select the proper interpretation of a term contextually. If we only focus on a single meaning we're going to get in trouble. There's also the reverse problem called "illegitimate total transfer" where one researches every single meaning of a word and then applies all meanings simultaneously to every use of the word. This is just as dangerous an error as selective use.

In any case, since we can't really debate this topic (nor do I really care to), I would instead advise you brother to explore these hermeneutic issues. It's very easy to pick up Strong's or learn enough Greek to be dangerous, but we have to very careful when it comes to this idea that simple word studies can solve all interpretative problems. It can't. So if you're interested in further study, you might want to check out this book. I'm not saying one probably can't still come to the same theological conclusion with a solid hermeneutic, but at least you'll be able to avoid what looks like you're doing here. I.e. making simple lexical errors.

God bless brother and peace be with you!

ke1985 said:

There is a debate whether or not hell exists. Some believe non believers just die, while others are sure of a long and agonizing eternity in hell. Here is my question: Why would God desire hell over death?

Most christians would never send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. But, we grant God this right. So, why would a loving and kind God rather create hell than a place of nothingness? Does this not seem sadistic?

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Eternal torment is not a biblical teaching, it is of Satan.
Satan will live in eternal torment and he want's you to think that is your fate also.
He wants you to believe God is some kind of ogre.
The torment of the wicked will be short lived, only lasting from the time they realize that they will be thrown into the fire until that fire kills them and leaves them nothing but ashes.

Timothew said:

Do you have any scriptures that confirm this? Does the bible say anywhere that people choose hell? Please don't get angry. I'm just asking for scriptural support.

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Yeppers . Far more than most ideas around here . I don't even understand why those who ask for what the "bible" says to not know of any Scriptural support for it since it doesn't take long after reading it with all the helps to find the support . ( Psssst ... I will give you one hint .... you already quoted one very good reference for support . )

For instance ... before I provide Scriptural support could you provide me with Scriptural support for the need of a "bible" ? Also , Scriptural support for the need of Scriptural support would be much appreciated since nobody bothers answering that question .

Mikecpking said:

I will say I believe that the unsaved will be annihilated after a God-determinated length of time in the lake of fire (Gehenna as a picture for the lake of fire).

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Or if we go by the actual meaning of Gehenna as believed by Jews (and thus Jesus and the Apostles), it's at most a 1 year long purgatory to prepare most people for the World to Come. Only a handful of people cannot be purified and are destroyed.

Eternal Hell is an invention of the Catholic Church to scare people into conversion.

ke1985 said:

Most christians would never send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. But, we grant God this right. So, why would a loving and kind God rather create hell than a place of nothingness? Does this not seem sadistic?

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And how would you know that? This is a world where haters abound. Even the sincerest have their limits. No one is perfect. Only God is perfect.

So God can send people to hell.

whitetiger1 said:

He will not force them somewhere they do no want to go.

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On that assumption, no one will be in Hell, because no one would ever want to go there.

BTW, Who created Hell, and set it up as the place where the dead go by default?

elopez said:

That said, it is a mere assumption to think God desires any soul to experience Hell.

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Then why'd He create it?

God originally didn't create Hell

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Neo-manichee, are we?

whitetiger1 said:

GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL.

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Then how do they get there? And why?

98cwitr said:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

...and I'm not talking about annihilationism. I'm talking about burning in hell for eternity.

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So this is another of those cases where we say "That's what our Lord said, but what He really meant was...", isnt it? He said "destroy", but what He really meant was "torture forever".

At this point, you need to provide scripture to prove your point,

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And if it doesn't, just say "but what He really meant was...".

because it's my opinion you're spouting personal beliefs based on what men have taught you

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But wait, what our Lord said was "destroy". But men are saying that isn't He really meant. So you're in effect saying that what men are saying he meant trumps what He actually said, zat right?

Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

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Yep, looks like.