hell

file13 · Nov 17, 2011

ke1985 said:
There is a debate whether or not hell exists. Some believe non believers just die, while others are sure of a long and agonizing eternity in hell. Here is my question: Why would God desire hell over death?

Most christians would never send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. But, we grant God this right. So, why would a loving and kind God rather create hell than a place of nothingness? Does this not seem sadistic?

Well, keep in mind, hell is the reward for sin. People earn and deserve hell as sinners. I know I do as does every other person because I've broken every commandment in spirit if not in deed. This is of course why I need a savior.

But as for the length of hell, what makes you think people will stop sinning in hell?

PaladinValer · Nov 17, 2011

98cwitr said:
"God incarnated to save His entire creation."

^^^That's universalism. Period.

I expect an immediate retraction from you; here's my whole post, with emphasis and proof that you failed to read my entire post in proper context:

In orthodox theology, nothing is destroyed. God incarnated to save His entire creation. All existence will be resurrected and transfigured. As for people, all of us will have everlasting life, although some of us will find it a terrible experience.

The idea of heaven upon the Second Advent as being somewhere else like it is now is popular theology. Heaven will be HERE; the Church is a foreshadowment and a sliver of God's Kingdom here as it is, but when His celestial realm unites with our material plane, it will be an event beyond human imagining.

As for hell, that too will finally come about. It, however, will be HERE as well. Hell is a real place in the future, and that place is here. Those who reject God's sacrificial love and grace will not be forced to accept it. God will Judge those who don't want it accordingly. However, God will not leave His returned Presence HERE. Those who will experience hell will find that Presence, now everlasting and them unable to find joy in our next Eden to be PAINFUL. They will gnash their teeth and wail, but the sounds of the joyous will drown them out.

A place of physical pain has nothing on the pain that I describe above. God is a God of Life, not death. There is no more destruction. God won't harm a hair of the damned. He will allow them what they want: to be separate from Him, yet at the same time, His actual Presence will be all around them.

That isn't a contradiction if you consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is always Present. Plenty of people here who live don't live according to the grace and love gifted by Him. As we can see, no contradictions at all.

No one populates hell now because hell doesn't exist yet. There is a holding place for fallen angels, but that was only for angels. They too will be released and Judged.

In the end, there will be only one realm: a union of our material plane with God's celestial realm. That's it. How we experience that will determine if we are experiencing heaven or hell.

An immediate, honest retraction please. I do believe in hell, I believe it to be everlasting, and I believe it will be experienced by people.

"No one populates hell now because hell doesn't exist yet"

Luke 16.

Sheol isn't hell. Never has been and never will be. Sheol is a place of waiting and is a FORETASTE of the experience of heaven and hell, but is not those places.

"In orthodox theology, nothing is destroyed"

Lies....

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Can, not will.

...and I'm not talking about annihilationism. I'm talking about burning in hell for eternity.

Figurative language. Your theology is based on medieval popular theology that you can find in Dante's Divine Comedy. Real orthodox theology isn't found there. It makes a smashing book (and would make a fantastic movie), but it makes poor theology.

At this point, you need to provide scripture to prove your point, because it's my opinion you're spouting personal beliefs based on what men have taught you:

I know how to read the Scriptures in the context that they have. All you give are literalist interpretations without considering a shred of schema.

Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

Follow your own advice.

There is no fire and brimstone hell. That's a medieval mishmash of the immediate afterlife theology of 1st century Judaism and of the Early Church (see the Apostle's Creed) combined with New Testament apocrypha and poor education (even among the clergy in the West; note you don't see this nonsense in the East...hint hint: Byzantium and Civilization!).

In any event, I proved that I do believe in hell, that it is everlasting, and that it will be populated. Universalism rejects that. Therefore, I cannot be a Universalist. Please retract your utterly false accusation, thank you.

ke1985 · Nov 17, 2011

file13 said:
Well, keep in mind, hell is the reward for sin. People earn and deserve hell as sinners. I know I do as does every other person because I've broken every commandment in spirit if not in deed. This is of course why I need a savior.?

Doesn't it sound like a psychologically sick relationship though? Man is the sinner, flawed, and in need of help. God is all powerful and it sorta resembles an abusive relationship. God seems to say, "You should be grateful I put up with you. No one can love you like I can. You are in your crooked ways and only I can save you."

The whole theology of it all seems wrong to me.

ke1985 · Nov 17, 2011

Most Christians will not admit fear of hell is the reason why they remain committed to God. It would be too devastating to admit this.

98cwitr · Nov 17, 2011

PaladinValer said:
I expect an immediate retraction from you; here's my whole post, with emphasis and proof that you failed to read my entire post in proper context:

In orthodox theology, nothing is destroyed. God incarnated to save His entire creation. All existence will be resurrected and transfigured. As for people, all of us will have everlasting life, although some of us will find it a terrible experience.

The idea of heaven upon the Second Advent as being somewhere else like it is now is popular theology. Heaven will be HERE; the Church is a foreshadowment and a sliver of God's Kingdom here as it is, but when His celestial realm unites with our material plane, it will be an event beyond human imagining.

As for hell, that too will finally come about. It, however, will be HERE as well. Hell is a real place in the future, and that place is here. Those who reject God's sacrificial love and grace will not be forced to accept it. God will Judge those who don't want it accordingly. However, God will not leave His returned Presence HERE. Those who will experience hell will find that Presence, now everlasting and them unable to find joy in our next Eden to be PAINFUL. They will gnash their teeth and wail, but the sounds of the joyous will drown them out.

A place of physical pain has nothing on the pain that I describe above. God is a God of Life, not death. There is no more destruction. God won't harm a hair of the damned. He will allow them what they want: to be separate from Him, yet at the same time, His actual Presence will be all around them.

That isn't a contradiction if you consider the fact that the Holy Spirit is always Present. Plenty of people here who live don't live according to the grace and love gifted by Him. As we can see, no contradictions at all.

No one populates hell now because hell doesn't exist yet. There is a holding place for fallen angels, but that was only for angels. They too will be released and Judged.

In the end, there will be only one realm: a union of our material plane with God's celestial realm. That's it. How we experience that will determine if we are experiencing heaven or hell.

An immediate, honest retraction please. I do believe in hell, I believe it to be everlasting, and I believe it will be experienced by people.

Sheol isn't hell. Never has been and never will be. Sheol is a place of waiting and is a FORETASTE of the experience of heaven and hell, but is not those places.

Can, not will.

Figurative language. Your theology is based on medieval popular theology that you can find in Dante's Divine Comedy. Real orthodox theology isn't found there. It makes a smashing book (and would make a fantastic movie), but it makes poor theology.

I know how to read the Scriptures in the context that they have. All you give are literalist interpretations without considering a shred of schema.

Follow your own advice.

There is no fire and brimstone hell. That's a medieval mishmash of the immediate afterlife theology of 1st century Judaism and of the Early Church (see the Apostle's Creed) combined with New Testament apocrypha and poor education (even among the clergy in the West; note you don't see this nonsense in the East...hint hint: Byzantium and Civilization!).

In any event, I proved that I do believe in hell, that it is everlasting, and that it will be populated. Universalism rejects that. Therefore, I cannot be a Universalist. Please retract your utterly false accusation, thank you.

im not retracting jack...you still have yet to back up anything with scripture.

No fire huh?

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 18:7-9 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:40-42 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Seems like any scripture I post you'll twist though...so I'm obviously wasting my time posting it. :doh:

file13 · Nov 17, 2011

ke1985 said:
Doesn't it sound like a psychologically sick relationship though? Man is the sinner, flawed, and in need of help. God is all powerful and it sorta resembles an abusive relationship.

Are you saying you haven't heard about the good news that follows the bad news that the Law brings up!? :o

Are You a Good Person? - YouTube

ebia · Nov 17, 2011

ke1985 said:
Most Christians will not admit fear of hell is the reason why they remain committed to God. It would be too devastating to admit this.

"you think x"
"no I do not"
"you're just too scared to admit it"

Not much room for a conversation there if youre going to tell people what they

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

file13 said:
Well, keep in mind, hell is the reward for sin. People earn and deserve hell as sinners.

Actually, the bible says that death is the reward for sin. The wages of sin is death. That's Romans 6:23. Paul backs this up by stating in 2 Thes 1:9 that the punishment is everlasting destruction. Destruction is not torment in hell.

Jesus said the same thing, Read John 3:16. Whosover believes in him will not PERISH but will have eternal life.

The Old Testament Prophets had the same message.

Ezekiel said

The soul who sins shall die.

But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

People earn death as sinners, but God is merciful and gives eternal life as a gift to all who trust in him. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

zeke37 · Nov 17, 2011

98cwitr said:
"God incarnated to save His entire creation."

^^^That's universalism. Period.

"No one populates hell now because hell doesn't exist yet"

Luke 16.

speaks of heaven and the gulf inbetween the two sides....,
and the rich man being in torments, is a condition...hell...
not burning flames of physical torture.

"In orthodox theology, nothing is destroyed"

Lies....

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

that is the second death, that of the soul...destroyed forever.

...and I'm not talking about annihilationism. I'm talking about burning in hell for eternity.

being tortured forever is fiction.
being annihilated, soul and all, is not fiction.

At this point, you need to provide scripture to prove your point, because it's my opinion you're spouting personal beliefs based on what men have taught you:

Isaiah 29:13
The Lord says: These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

mat10, rev20.

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

98cwitr said:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

...and I'm not talking about annihilationism. I'm talking about burning in hell for eternity.

Destroy means destroy, not burning undestroyed in hell for eternity. Perhaps you are not talking about annihilationism. It appears that Jesus was, and his word is the one that counts.

98cwitr · Nov 17, 2011

^^^Wrong.

ἀπόλλυμι,v \{ap-ol'-loo-mee}
1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with ... <--World still stood, but was "destroyed"
... διά ὅς ὁ τότε κόσμος ὕδωρ κατακλύζω ἀπόλλυμι ...
//biblos.com/2_peter/3-6.htm - 48k
Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all ... <--- perish
... αὐτός ἀπόλλυμι σύ δέ διαμένω καί πᾶς ὡς ἱμάτιον παλαιόω ...
//biblos.com/hebrews/1-11.htm - 49k
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which ... <---lose
... βλέπω ἑαυτοῦ ἵνα μή ἀπόλλυμι ὅς ἐργάζομαι ἀλλά μισθός πλήρης ἀπολαμβάνω ...
//biblos.com/2_john/1-8.htm - 52k
James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to ... <--- destroy
... εἷς εἰμί ὁ νομοθέτης καί κριτής ὁ δύναμαι σώζω
καί ἀπόλλυμι σύ δέ τίς εἰμί ὁ κρίνω ὁ ...
//biblos.com/james/4-12.htm - 53k
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of ... <--- perishing
... καί ἐν πᾶς ἀπάτη ἀδικία ὁ ἀπόλλυμι ἀντί ὅς ὁ ἀγάπη ὁ ἀλήθεια οὐ δέχομαι εἰς ὁ ...
//biblos.com/2_thessalonians/2-10.htm - 58k
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain ... <---destroyed
... ὁ Κάϊν πορεύομαι καί ὁ πλάνη ὁ Βαλαάμ μισθός ἐκχέω καί ὁ ἀντιλογία ὁ Κορέ ἀπόλλυμι ...
//biblos.com/jude/1-11.htm - 58k
Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are ... <---vanished
... ὁ ἐπιθυμία ὁ ψυχή ἀπέρχομαι ἀπό σύ καί πᾶς ὁ
λιπαρός καί ὁ λαμπρός ἀπόλλυμι ἀπό σύ ...
//biblos.com/revelation/18-14.htm - 60k
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once ... <---destroyed
... εἴδω ἅπαξ πᾶς ὅτι κύριος λαός ἐκ γῆ Αἴγυπτος σώζω ὁ δεύτερος ὁ μή πιστεύω ἀπόλλυμι ...
//biblos.com/jude/1-5.htm - 59k
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some ... <---perish
... τὶς βραδύτης ἡγέομαι ἀλλά μακροθυμέω διά ὑμεῖς μή βούλομαι τὶς ἀπόλλυμι ἀλλά πᾶς ...
//biblos.com/2_peter/3-9.htm - 62k
James 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but ... <---beauty is destroyed
... καί ὁ ἄνθος αὐτός ἐκπίπτω καί ὁ εὐπρέπεια ὁ πρόσωπον αὐτός ἀπόλλυμι οὕτω καί ὁ ...
//biblos.com/james/1-11.htm - 62k

---

We are raised imperishable -1 Cor. 15

Merlinius · Nov 17, 2011

ke1985 said:
There is a debate whether or not hell exists. Some believe non believers just die, while others are sure of a long and agonizing eternity in hell. Here is my question: Why would God desire hell over death?

Most christians would never send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. But, we grant God this right. So, why would a loving and kind God rather create hell than a place of nothingness? Does this not seem sadistic?

It's just ignorance of the Word and of knowing God. If they are honest and come to know God, and buy a concordance, they'll come to understand the paganism of that teaching.
God Bless

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

98cwitr said:
^^^Wrong.

ἀπόλλυμι,v \{ap-ol'-loo-mee}
1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

We are raised imperishable -1 Cor. 15

WE are raised imperishable, those that perish (John 3:16) are not raised imperishable.

Plus, you can't ignore all of the definition of apollumi and just take the one subdefinition that fits your presupposition and was only put in to satisfy the demands of a theology that assumes eternal torment.

98cwitr · Nov 17, 2011

^^^I didn't, I provided every other usage in the Bible and showed it's context.
--
Sorry Tim, there's no "we" in the verse here:

"42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;"

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

You and I have discussed this before and we will agree to disagree.
You added a lot in editting your post.
I've read some, and they don't support your case. I'm out of time now, but I will come back to it.
διά ὅς ὁ τότε κόσμος ὕδωρ κατακλύζω ἀπόλλυμι
This doesn't say those who were killed in the flood were sent to hell. It just doesn't say that.
αὐτός ἀπόλλυμι σύ δέ διαμένω
THEY perish but YOU remain, how does this support your point?

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

98cwitr said:
^^^I didn't, I provided every other usage in the Bible and showed it's context.
--
Sorry Tim, there's no "we" in the verse here:

"42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;"

I took your word for the we in the verse. Nevertheless, Paul says "to those who are perishing...," those cannot be imperishable can they? If so, how do they perish? So Paul is saying to those who are saved, that they will be sown (buried) perishable, and raised (resurrected) imperishable. Certainly those who go to the second death are not imperishable, they perish in the second death. That is what death is, perishing. We who do not fear the second death are imperishable, we won't perish in the second death.

file13 · Nov 17, 2011

Timothew said:
Actually, the bible says that death is the reward for sin. The wages of sin is death. That's Romans 6:23. Paul backs this up by stating in 2 Thes 1:9 that the punishment is everlasting destruction. Destruction is not torment in hell.

Oh yes, I know what the verses say. However, are you saying that you believe that people are (or rather will be) annihilated and won't actually suffer in everlasting Gehenna?

98cwitr · Nov 17, 2011

Timothew said:
I took your word for the we in the verse. Nevertheless, Paul says "to those who are perishing...," those cannot be imperishable can they? If so, how do they perish? So Paul is saying to those who are saved, that they will be sown (buried) perishable, and raised (resurrected) imperishable. Certainly those who go to the second death are not imperishable, they perish in the second death. That is what death is, perishing. We who do not fear the second death are imperishable, we won't perish in the second death.

Because they haven't been raised yet...pretty simple!

New_Wineskin · Nov 17, 2011

ke1985 said:
There is a debate whether or not hell exists. Some believe non believers just die, while others are sure of a long and agonizing eternity in hell. Here is my question: Why would God desire hell over death?

Most christians would never send anyone to burn in hell for eternity. But, we grant God this right. So, why would a loving and kind God rather create hell than a place of nothingness? Does this not seem sadistic?

Hell isn't a place that the Lord send people - it is a place that people choose while alive . They choose not to have a relationship with the Lord . At the Judgement Day , they see the Lord and are cast away . The thing is , all they have is each other - only those that have not desired a relationship with the Lord . Earth is bad enough most of the times . That is a lot worse .

Timothew · Nov 17, 2011

file13 said:
Oh yes, I know what the verses say. However, are you saying that you believe that people are (or rather will be) annihilated and won't actually suffer in everlasting Gehenna?

Are you saying the wages of sin is NOT death, even though the bible says the wages of sin is death? Are you saying, despite this verse, that people will suffer in Gehenna?

According to the bible, people will either die (the wages of sin is death) or they will receive eternal life. (but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord. You said annilated. The bible says that the wages of sin is death.

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