Hell?

[ananda]

Capital Punishment was nearly non existent under Jewish Law. It was a warning and deterrant, not a practice. It was impossible to actually meet the burden of proof. And it was abolished by the Sanhedrin in 30 A.D.

The Sanhedrin cannot lawfully abolish something that Elohim instituted. The lesser cannot overrule the greater.

 

[Jase]

The Sanhedrin cannot lawfully abolish something that Elohim instituted. The lesser cannot overrule the greater.

Well, under Jewish law, executions were extremely extremely rare and any Sanhedrin that actually executed a man was deemed destructive. So apparently the Israelites have been going against Elohims commands since Mount Sinai.

You're also assuming God provided the death penalty, and not the Jewish Leaders. The 10 Commandments have no capital punishment clause.

 

[visionary]

Well, under Jewish law, executions were extremely extremely rare and any Sanhedrin that actually executed a man was deemed destructive. So apparently the Israelites have been going against Elohims commands since Mount Sinai.

You're also assuming God provided the death penalty, and not the Jewish Leaders. The 10 Commandments have no capital punishment clause.

Yep those capital punishments are listed in the ordiances that are written by Moses and kept on the side of the ark.

 

[Lulav]

Jesus have kinda similar parable on that one... Whoever comes first will be last or something...

I don't think that was what he was referring to. Not time but 'rank'. That's how I see it.

Heaven is eternal, hell is also eternal. Heaven where God is, hell where Satan is.

I don't think satan is in hell yet else we wouldn't be having these discussions would we?

Let me qualify what I was saying. The point I was trying to make is that Hell is separation from, not union with, God. God withdraws from sinners, and that goes for Hell as well. Think of the doctrine of the indwelling presence of God.

Yes, I believe that to, hell is the absence of G-d or from G-d, it is the absence of love, (I think I said that before, recently on this thread?). It is being without love. Now where that place is, doesn't matter to me, because where ever G-d isn't that place is Hell.

 

[Lulav]

I'm a Jew who follows Yeshua haMesiach. I embrace my Jewish identity and stick more to the Jewish culture.

Nothing else is required to be an MJ. Even the statement of purpose on this board confirms that.

I value the Torah, but at the same time, I know it was written for a specific culture thousands of years ago. Aside from the multitude of mitzvot we can't even follow due the lack of a temple, there are numerous ones that would be downright barbaric and illegal to follow in this age unless we lived in an Islamic theocracy like Iran.

Taking a liberal approach to the Torah does not make me a non-MJ. You can be an MJ with a more Reform style of theology. I'm not a Haredi Jew.

This is correct, you are perfectly at home in this forum. For those who want to be more Torah observant and speak only under those auspices the Torah Observant Messianic Believers Forum was created. Those who wish to, can post there.

 

[mitcherator]

i believe hell exist but some denomination claims it doesn't exist because of "misinterpretation". I know the Hebrew words translated "hell" are different. Do you guys believe hell exist and explain why and why not if that's ok... Thanks guys! you guys know Hebrew than I do for sure

Please vote for poll if that's ok...

My 2 cents is this if Jesus Spoke about hell I think it exists the Word speaks of it and it's a place that I don't want anyone to go to. thats why we should tell everyone we know about Jesus so that they can be saved and be with God when they die for Eternity

 

[visionary]

My 2 cents is this if Jesus Spoke about hell I think it exists the Word speaks of it and it's a place that I don't want anyone to go to. thats why we should tell everyone we know about Jesus so that they can be saved and be with God when they die for Eternity

Amen.... its punishment is forever and ever... there is no resurrection from it.. and those who receive it will be ashes under our feet.

 

[Lulav]

Correct. However, we're making the assumption that Moses actually wrote the Torah (most scholars disagree, however I know that's a tradition issue with the Jews, so Moses will always be the presumed author in the Jewish community). I'm not just talking about the Torah though. The New Testament was written by Jews also, and they did not write anything down for decades, because it was the tradition to pass down the information orally.

That's true in the traditional sense but with the discovery of the DSS that has been changed. These writing were most likely written in the first part of the 1st century. These have not been copied over and over nor been victim to institutional redaction.

God inspired the authors to write about their experiences and interactions with him. He made sure that his main theological point was conveyed, but he wasn't concerned with ensuring a perfect text (otherwise he would have never let human hands touch it and alter it to suit their agendas).

God's revelation is bigger than a book. The Bible is a guide, not a divine instruction manual rigidly meant to control people's lives.

Actually according to the Torah is was written down by Moses (the greater part of it) during the forty years of wandering. I'm not saying there is no redaction there but it has gone through many tests that can offer proof of its divine origin. For the NT I can't say that is true, too much human fiddling has gone on for more human purposes than godly. I do think that some of what we call the bible , which is really a compilation of various writers, has been included that shouldn't have been and vis versa.

 

[yedida]

That's true in the traditional sense but with the discovery of the DSS that has been changed. These writing were most likely written in the first part of the 1st century. These have not been copied over and over nor been victim to institutional redaction.


Actually according to the Torah is was written down by Moses (the greater part of it) during the forty years of wandering. I'm not saying there is no redaction there but it has gone through many tests that can offer proof of its divine origin. For the NT I can't say that is true, too much human fiddling has gone on for more human purposes than godly. I do think that some of what we call the bible , which is really a compilation of various writers, has been included that shouldn't have been and vis versa.

I'm with you about the NT. Except for the words of Yeshua proper, I look at the NT more as commentary than God-breathed. It may have been such with the original autographs, but I believe it got added to, diminished, and swapped around a few times too many to view it as 100% inspired. So I tend to weigh everything by Yeshua's words and the Torah (which are His words again).

 

[Lulav]

Capital Punishment was nearly non existent under Jewish Law. It was a warning and deterrant, not a practice. It was impossible to actually meet the burden of proof. And it was abolished by the Sanhedrin in 30 A.D.

Well, under Jewish law, executions were extremely extremely rare and any Sanhedrin that actually executed a man was deemed destructive. So apparently the Israelites have been going against Elohims commands since Mount Sinai.

You're also assuming God provided the death penalty, and not the Jewish Leaders. The 10 Commandments have no capital punishment clause.

30CE? Can you give me a cite on that?

We have the testimony of Josephus about James, and that was in the 60's right before the destruction. Now granted this was a rogue High Priest but nonetheless he was executed.

 

[Jase]

30CE? Can you give me a cite on that?

We have the testimony of Josephus about James, and that was in the 60's right before the destruction. Now granted this was a rogue High Priest but nonetheless he was executed.

40 years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the rabbis abolished capital punishment altogether (Soncino Talmud, Sanhedrin page 161, footnote 10). Rather than applying the four methods of execution themselves, they ruled that punishment should be carried out by divine agencies (Sanhedrin 37B, Ketubot 30A, & 30B). In other words, a punishment so awesome as the taking of a person's life should not be entrusted to fallible human beings, but only to God.


Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty

"Forty years before the destruction" of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, i.e. in 30 CE, the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment, making it a hypothetical upper limit on the severity of punishment, fitting in finality for God alone to use, not fallible humans.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_capital_punishment#Judaism

 

[GuardianShua]

40 years before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the rabbis abolished capital punishment altogether (Soncino Talmud, Sanhedrin page 161, footnote 10). Rather than applying the four methods of execution themselves, they ruled that punishment should be carried out by divine agencies (Sanhedrin 37B, Ketubot 30A, & 30B). In other words, a punishment so awesome as the taking of a person's life should not be entrusted to fallible human beings, but only to God.


Virginians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty

"Forty years before the destruction" of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, i.e. in 30 CE, the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment, making it a hypothetical upper limit on the severity of punishment, fitting in finality for God alone to use, not fallible humans.[24]

Religion and capital punishment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yet the high priest had Yahshua killed after that ruling. It does not add up. If they indeed made that ruling, they paid no attention to it.

 

[GuardianShua]

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

 

[Jase]

And yet the high priest had Yahshua killed after that ruling. It does not add up. If they indeed made that ruling, they paid no attention to it.

Maybe that's why the high priest wanted the Romans to do it, since he couldn't. Crucifixion is a Roman execution method. Jews did not actually kill Yeshua.

 

[Lulav]

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

And which false prophet you think that he was referring to?

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm with you about the NT. Except for the words of Yeshua proper, I look at the NT more as commentary than God-breathed.

But Jesus' words about the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being given to His Disciples are the reason why their writings and those they ratify are inspired. IOW, the NT is considered inspired because of the words of Jesus and the promise of inspiration to His Apostles. Even the words of Jesus contained in the Gospels were done under that inspiration, so you have to believe in the inspiration of the Apostles even to believe in the written and recorded words of Jesus. So- the whole of the NT is inspired.

It may have been such with the original autographs, but I believe it got added to, diminished, and swapped around a few times too many to view it as 100% inspired.

But the Torah has also been edited, added to, etc. if you believe the same people who say that about the NT.

So I tend to weigh everything by Yeshua's words and the Torah (which are His words again).

....and both of those sources are written by men and have evidence of redaction.

The real underlying issue here is one of authority. Do you think the people of God have authority or not?

 

[ContraMundum]

Maybe that's why the high priest wanted the Romans to do it, since he couldn't. Crucifixion is a Roman execution method. Jews did not actually kill Yeshua.

The Jews did not execute Jesus, true, but the Sanhedrin did "try" Him. In doing so, they broke something like 21 laws.

 

[ContraMundum]

The Sanhedrin cannot lawfully abolish something that Elohim instituted. The lesser cannot overrule the greater.

You might be surprised. Under current Rabbinic teaching, which claims to be based on the original Torah and was the case since that time, halacha is decided by He waits for their decisions, so to speak. the Rabbis, not God, who it is claimed gave them such authority. This is why things have been brought into halacha that are not found in the Torah. I know not many Messianic or Christians know about this, but there is certainly a tradition regarding this in the Judaism that I know.

What is interesting to me is that if you regard this process as truly Jewish, and interpret the NT through that paradigm, you end up with a Magisterium like the Roman C's have and a lot of problems regarding Christian halacha (that is constantly debated on this forum) dissolve.

Interesting, yes, true, maybe not.

 

[GuardianShua]

And which false prophet you think that he was referring to?

Yahshua is the one who prophesied, not John the baptist. And as for John who wrote revelation, he is not mentioned as a prophet, but a disciple.

 

[GuardianShua]

Maybe that's why the high priest wanted the Romans to do it, since he couldn't. Crucifixion is a Roman execution method. Jews did not actually kill Yeshua.

Pilate found Yahshua innocent of their claims, so he was executed according to the will of the priest and people.
Matthew 27:24-25
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!” All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”