Hell?

[anisavta]

My question is - without hell or an eternal punishment, where is the justice of G~d?

 

[GuardianShua]

MTAA,
The saved could never feel "contempt" for another person. We are to walk and act like our Master. He could get seethingly angry at those who opposed him, but I can't recall one time where we're told he felt contempt for anyone.

Contempt: The feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn. 2. the state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace.

 

[Lulav]

So you believe there is no consequences of sin???

More redaction of scripture - this time to justify the rejection of Messiah Yeshua


Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

But is contempt, hell? Also is it 'many' or 'all' that died?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable , and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, andsorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, andidolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Notice the one group in 21 matches the same with 22, except for three kinds of people. Fearful, unbelieving and abominable. Unbelieving in G-d, abominable (I think this is where the offspring of the 'giants' comes in) and the fearful, I would say these are those who aren't trusting enough in G-d.

Now what is a second death?
The Greek is the word for second so that is clear, but if it was final why not say that?

King Solomon who is said to be the man with the most wisdom of all time,

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The flesh shall return to the earth, but the spirit, the soul shall return to G-d. I don't think those that are 'abominable' have that spirit.

I would love to have Yonah give some grammer lessons on this verse

τοῖς δὲ δειλοῖς καὶ ἀπίστοις καὶ ἐβδελυγμένοις καὶ φονεῦσιν καὶ πόρνοις καὶ φαρμάκοις καὶ εἰδωλολάτραις καὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς ψευδέσιν τὸ μέρος αὐτῶν ἐν τῇ λίμνῃ τῇ καιομένῃ πυρὶ καὶ θείῳ, ὅ ἐστιν ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερος.



There is a lot of translation to the word 'which', which to me sounds odd.

 

[GuardianShua]

My question is - without hell or an eternal punishment, where is the justice of G~d?

If God engaged in despicable acts such as torture, then how is that He is above such things. Why is death not any kind of justice to you?

 

[anisavta]

To me? It's not about me darlin'. It's about G~d's kingdom. So Hitler just gets to die and that's all? And I get to die and that's all and you get to die and that's all? Some people have to suffer at the hands of evil but in the end we all just cease to exist? And who's talking about G~d engaged in despicable acts such as torture?

 

[INTJ-F]

To me? It's not about me darlin'. It's about G~d's kingdom. So Hitler just gets to die and that's all? And I get to die and that's all and you get to die and that's all? Some people have to suffer at the hands of evil but in the end we all just cease to exist? And who's talking about G~d engaged in despicable acts such as torture?

Why did Messiah die for our sins if non-existence is all there is in eternity??? Lots of nonsense.

Seems we have been infiltrated by unbelievers that are here to cause strife in the congregation and to spread their false teachings and doctrines. This should not be allowed on this board.

 

[Timothew]

Why did Messiah die for our sins if non-existence is all there is in eternity??? Lots of nonsense.

Seems we have been infiltrated by unbelievers that are here to cause strife in the congregation and to spread their false teachings and doctrines. This should not be allowed on this board.

It isn't allowed. You should report it.

The doctrine is called "annihilationism" and is only allowed to be discussed in "Unorthodox Theology."

It happens to be biblically true, but that seems to be neither here nor there. The wages of sin is death, according to Paul, not eternal torment in Hell-Fire.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not PERISH (this word means die) but instead they will have ETERNAL LIFE. (This means life without ever again dying)

Genesis: If you eat that fruit, dying you will die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The Soul that sinneth shall die.

Why did the Messiah die for our sins? To pay the price of death which we owed for our sins. He died and rose again paying the wages of sin for us. The wages of sin is death. His death substitutes for our death.

Tim

 

[INTJ-F]

The doctrine is called "annihilationism" and is only allowed to be discussed in "Unorthodox Theology."

It happens to be biblically true, but that seems to be neither here nor there. The wages of sin is death, according to Paul, not eternal torment in Hell-Fire.

Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[Lulav]

To me? It's not about me darlin'. It's about G~d's kingdom. So Hitler just gets to die and that's all? And I get to die and that's all and you get to die and that's all? Some people have to suffer at the hands of evil but in the end we all just cease to exist? And who's talking about G~d engaged in despicable acts such as torture?

I don't see it that way, although we need to be careful to not judge, even the dictator the killer of our people, that is G-ds place. Besides, I don't see it as just he dies, I die, you die. It isn't about dying, it is about your eternal home.

Hopefully you and I get to live with our G-d and bask in his love forever with no one to hunt us down and try to torture us. While those like Hitler do not.

If G-d is Love then to live without him is to live without love, totally and completely.

To me I can't nor do I want to imagine living without love. That to me is worst than death. :o

 

[Timothew]

Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Some to everlasting life?
And the others? Also to everlasting life, except in Hell?

Your scripture makes the point that only some receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive everlasting life receive the opposite of life, which is death.

 

[Lulav]

It's Hell without G-d.

 

[yedida]

Mat 23:13 ButG1161 woeG3759 unto you,G5213 scribesG1122 andG2532 Pharisees,G5330 hypocrites!G5273 forG3754 ye shut upG2808 theG3588 kingdomG932 of heavenG3772 againstG1715 men:G444 forG1063 yeG5210 neitherG3756 go inG1525 yourselves, neitherG3761 sufferG863 ye them that are enteringG1525 to go in.G1525

Oh I dunno. Seems like He has a fairly ripping contempt for these guys in Matt. 23, all the "Woes...". He's calling them a bunch of phonies, fighting words to those old boys.

I can see anger, frustrations in his words but I don't see contempt.

 

[INTJ-F]

Some to everlasting life?
And the others? Also to everlasting life, except in Hell?

Your scripture makes the point that only some receive everlasting life. Those who do not receive everlasting life receive the opposite of life, which is death.

They AWAKE to everlasting --- FOREVER --- contempt

Points:

1. they are awake for it

2. It is FOREVER

annihilationism is a lie by those who want to justify their sin without facing an eternal consequence.

'plunk'

 

[Timothew]

They AWAKE to everlasting --- FOREVER --- contempt

Points:

1. they are awake for it

2. It is FOREVER

annihilationism is a lie by those who want to justify their sin without facing an eternal consequence.

'plunk'

Is it really? I didn't know that. Wouldn't "death" be an eternal consequence of sin? Paul seemed to think so when he wrote "the wages of sin is death."

It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment. After the judgment comes the results of the judgment. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. John (in Revelation) called this death the second death. We all are resurrrected on the last day to stand before Christ for judgment. He decides who will receive eternal life and who will not receive eternal life.

What is "Plunk"?

 

[anisavta]

But non existence is a copout. How will one know they are not in G~d's presence if they just cease to exist?
Why would G~d judge Sodom and Gomorrah if there was no justice and judgement. Why didn't he just let them live until they died?

 

[Timothew]

But non existence is a copout. How will one know they are not in G~d's presence if they just cease to exist?
Why would G~d judge Sodom and Gomorrah if there was no justice and judgement. Why didn't he just let them live until they died?

When the Lord judged Sodom and Gomorrah, how did He do it?
I mean specifically, what does Genesis say happened to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[anisavta]

"the wages of sin is death."

Spiritual or physical death? So you die and stop breathing? Blip you're here - blip you're not. Our souls and spirits are eternal.

 

[Timothew]

Spiritual or physical death? So you die and stop breathing? Blip you're here - blip you're not. Our souls and spirits are eternal.

Spiritual or physical death? What does the bible say? Does it say "spiritual death" or not?

Our souls and spirits are eternal? What does the bible say? Does it say that our souls and spirits are eternal or not?

 

[Timothew]

Spiritual or physical death? What does the bible say? Does it say "spiritual death" or not?

Our souls and spirits are eternal? What does the bible say? Does it say that our souls and spirits are eternal or not?

Typical. I ask what does the bible say and there is resounding silence.

 

[anisavta]

Isaiah 66:24 "As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will never die, and their fire will never be quenched; but they will be abhorrent to all humanity."
Mark 9:43 If your hand makes you sin, cut it off! Better that you should be maimed but obtain eternal life, rather than keep both hands and go to Gei-Hinnom, to unquenchable fire! 44 45 And if your foot makes you sin, cut it off! Better that you should be lame but obtain eternal life, rather than keep both feet and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom! 46 47 And if your eye makes you sin, pluck it out! Better that you should be one-eyed but enter the Kingdom of God, rather than keep both eyes and be thrown into Gei-Hinnom, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.